Voddie Baucham on Fault Lines and why he went to Zambia

Everyone, welcome once again to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. We have a special guest today. We've actually had doctor body Bacham on once before, but this is the second time. So thank you doctor Bockham for coming on. It's great to have someone who'll come back on the show. That's awesome. Yeah, man, it's my pleasure. John. You know I love your show, man, I watch it, I appreciate it. I appreciate you your friendship. So yeah, I'm excited. Man. Well, you know, I appreciate you a lot and your friendship as well. And I have to say this trailer we're about to watch, which is about it's a teaching series, and I want you to explain all that. But there's a trailer for this teaching series. It's about eight minutes long, and I want to just show everyone that video and then we're going to talk about it. I wrote fault Lines because of my love for the church. We're doing this project because of love for the church. I honestly believe that the critical social justice movement represents a threat, an existential threat, not a threat to Christianity per se, because Christianity can't be threatened God is on his throne, he will protect his bride. However, it represents a threat to unity within the body. We gotta act like the disadvantages between us are cultural and are not systemic, then we can't be together. Critical race theorists want to deliver us from the basement low ambitions of a thin, emaciated view of equality. It represents a threat to the clarity of the message that we communicate. Whiteness becomes the standard by which all good theology is judged. Whiteness is rooted in plunder, the enslavery genocide of Native Americans, sitting on stolen landing, so that. If it's right, theology is written by a white scholar who is contextualizing that theology for white audiences. The Gospel will always be the gospel. However, we are not always faithful in the way that we communicate the Gospel. Because silence is too high price to pay to be unified when our next under a police snake. Anti racists fundamentally reject savior theology that goes right in line. With racist ideas. In racist theology, and we're not always faithful in the way that we apply the Gospel. When you sign up for this congregation. You're signing up to be part of racial justice, and if that's not for you, then this church is not for you. The solution is fundamentally yes, the Gospel Cross the Resurrection, but also dethroning white supremacy in all of the forms in which it shows up in Christian spaces. So the goal here is to fight for faithfulness, to fight for the truth of that Gospel, to fight for the bride of Christ, to fight for unity in the Bride of Christ. It's a breakthrough if you can get white people to acknowledge that our race privileges us in this society. That is like the second Coming. Virtually no white man thinks they are guilty. You have to. Push and push and push to the point where, hey, wait a minute, I think you're I think you're pushing it, pushing an agenda while you're finally listening. My psychosocial development was inculcated in the water of white supremacy. I have grown up with this invisible kind of bag of privilege. I am a racist. Stem in which whiteness and white people are central and seen as inherently superior than to people of color. I'm going to struggle with racism and white supremacy until the day I die and get my glorified body. What I'm talking about right now is white privilege because I am immersed in a culture where I benefit from racism all the time. Nothing makes anglos more angry than the idea of white privilege. The Bible is very clear about the issue of justice. What does the lordal choir of you to do justice, love, mercy, and welcomely with your God. We know this from Michael six eight, and so justice is not optional for the people of God. That's why it's so critical that we understand what justice is. One of the dangers of the social justice movement is that it uses terminology that on the surface, sounds like it to be what we as Christians are about social justice? Am I against justice? Of course? Not up for justice? Anti racism? Am I pro racism? Of course not. So what we need to do is get behind these terms, get behind these words and look at two things. Number one, look at what people mean when they use them in this cultural moment, and number two, evaluate that in light of what the Bible says about the same issues. So, for example, when we talk about justice from a Biblical perspective, justice means the righteous application, the impartial application of the law of God, and given circumstance, we're told that we're not to be impartiul to the poor or to the rich. We have to apply God's law equally across the board. Social justice means something very different. And so if we're going to have conversations about justice, if we're going to have conversations about contemporary issues of our day, we're going to have to do so in light of what the Word of God has to teach about all of these issues. And while evaluating the cultural moment. You know, I've come a long way on a lot of these issues. I am a guy who had as probably the biggest hero of my life, Malcolm X. I am a guy who was always very afrocentric, very you could say, social justice oriented. As a believer. I came to a crossroads and I recognized that for the most part, I identified a lot more with my blackness than I did with my Christianity. For the most part, it was much more important to me that I was black than it was that I was a Christian. Over time, I had to come to grips with the fact that in Christ, at the foot of the Cross. There is no male or female. There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free. Over time, I had to come to grips with the fact that Christ died not only to reconcile us vertically to the Father, but to reconcile us horizontally with one another, and that I am a member of the body of Christ, and that nothing supersedes that, Nothing is more important than that. And it is that realization and my desire to see that unity manifested within the Body of Christ. If you're doing this study with a group, my hope is that this would be a place where you can be open, where you can be honest, a place where you can evaluate the narratives that are flying all around you, and a place where you can judge those things not according to your feelings, but according to the truth of the scriptures, according to what thus saith the Lord. I do believe that justice is incredibly important, but justice is only important to the degree that is the justice that God demands. To that end, we have to be right about what the word justice means and about what God requires of his people in this critical moment. Wow, Vodi, that was an awesome video, and I have to say what's really encouraging to me? And I got to ask you this question, is there were so many examples given in that eight minute video about what you were talking about, concrete examples. You showed Jarvis Williams, you showed Charlie Dates, you showed all kinds of woke teachers that I know. We've showed clips on this podcast, a lot of the clips you've even showed there. But there's a lot of reluctance, at least there has been among Christians who are against the social justice movement to get specific and you went there was that intentional? Yeah, it was absolutely intentional. I did that in the book, so it would have been disingenuous to not do it in the video. But just like in the book, and there's nothing malicious. Think it's important for people to know what we're talking about. So you know, I don't dwell on it or anything, but I do. I do give what I see as pertinent examples. So what's the intention? Then? This is a series that people can use where in their churches and small groups. Is it eight parts? How does it work? Yeah, it's all together. It's a ten part series. There's some supplemental material in those ten parts, but it's designed to be used in small group settings. You can definitely use it as an individual if you want to dive more into the topics and ideas in the book. There's also a participant's guide to help you know, further discussion, but it's really designed for groups to go through this and to have group discussions. You know, so much of what's been happening is, you know, we've been sort of talking past each other and you know, not really taking the time to sharpen each other, really taking the time to define terms. So I think it's very important that we do that, and this series is designed to help people do that. That's absolutely excellent. We've needed stuff like this and so I'm glad this material is out there now. I think Salem put it out. Is that where people go to find it as Salem Media or can they now ye. Now yeah, salemnow dot com and they can find it there. We're on the Salem Now app. They can find it there as well, and we're also trying to put together some packages for larger groups that want to do it. Okay, that's phenomenal, So Salem Now you can go find this material and then use it at your church, use it in the small group, use it wherever. I have to ask a question, because I know that a lot of political conservatives are concerned about this, and I know Salem is often associated with more political conservatives. Is this a good tool that can be used. Let's say, if you're in a tea party group or some polic group and say, why don't we we study the social justice movement and in so doing bring the gospel in. Is that a way we can use it? Absolutely? And you know that's the hope. I mean, that's what I tried to do in the book, and that's what we try to do here as well. Is you know, always make this sort of from a gospel perspective. This issue matters because it is an affront to the Gospel. So it could absolutely be used like that. And I think you successfully in that way. You know, one of the things that I've heard a few times in the last year is that the social justice movement is dead. That's not the issue that's of concern right now. I couldn't disagree more. And I'm assuming you feel like I do. You obviously think it's important enough to put this material out there now. I mean, do you think that this is going away anytime soon or where are we at. Well, it's not going away because it's rooted in Marxism and critical theory, and Marxism and critical theory are not going anywhere. Marxism and critical theory. You know, this is sort of a guiding light, if you will, of all of the leftist progressive movements in our culture. Intersectionality, you know, the whole lgbt Q I A two S plus plus whatever, the alphabet mafia, that's all about intersectionality. And so again, this is not going anywhere, but we've got to understand the roots and foundations in order to understand that it hasn't gone anywhere and that it's not going anywhere. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I think one of the things I've noticed is it's becoming more institutionalized, in other words, ingrained. It's part of policy now in many places. So maybe the controversy isn't as heated as it was, but it's certainly there and it's staying there. So this is this is great, and I would just encourage people listening to take advantage of this. There's not a lot of material out there like this, so go out and get it all the reasons. One of the reason they're not a lot of material like this out there is because you know, there are a lot of Christian publishers that just wouldn't touch it. Really, Salem's lot of very few publishers that have been willing to publish anti woke Christian books. There are others who are more amenable to it now, but initially nobody wanted to touch this stuff. Yeah, that's interesting, and I don't you know, I'm not going to ask you for names of publishing companies or anything. I found the same thing when I was trying to publish on this too, that there just wasn't a lot of room there. So, I mean, eventually I kind of went independent. But it's good to know Salem which is not They're not even a Christian publisher. They're more, like I said, politically conservative. I think, right, Well, it's it's it's an imprint of Regnory. Okay, so Regnary is the parent company and this is kind of the imprint of Regnory that does conservative religious material. Yeah, well that's great. I was hoping I could ask you a little bit unless you want to keep talking about social justice, about what you're doing in Africa, because I know when you come to the United States often in the last few years, there's always a hot topic, right every single time, everyone wants you to weigh in on it, right, And you know, it's like we're constantly fighting. And maybe that'll never change until Christ comes back. I don't know, but you know you're doing most of your time. I think people miss this and it's one of the things I just have to say I respect about you so much is you could ladder climb. You could be in the United States. You could be a political commentator or really probably whatever you want to be and make a pretty penny off of it. But you choose to be in Zambia. You choose to be helping a country that you were not born into. But there's people that you love there and you see opportunity and you're not going to forsake that for the you know, success I guess you could have here in the United States. And so I just want to say that. But since the majority of your time and effort over there, could you get people a little bit of an idea about what are you doing and why is it important if they want to support it. Yeah, we came here almost eight years ago to be eight years in August, to help start the African Christian University. It's a classical Christian liberal arts university started by the Reform Baptist of Zambia, the Reform Baptist the group of Reform Baptist churches here in Zambia, and it was an opportunity that just fit. It was an opportunity that you know, I came here for the first time in two thousand and six and there was just this kindred spirit, you know, between myself and the brethren here, and you know, then eight years later, the Lord you know calls you know, me and my wife to come here and be part of starting this school. So seven years ago the school launched and you know, we've been plugging away ever since. It's been a battle. It's been an uphill battle. You know. Starting a university is kind of like starting a church. And a metaphor that always, you know, resonated with me about planting a church was that it's like building a seven forty seven at thirty thousand feet, right, So yeah, that's what we're in the middle of. Yeah. So I was looking at the website for the university and it says this on African Christian University's background statement and I'm going through the end of it here, but it says, this is the goal of the African Christian University to know and exult God in the pursuit of all truth via every avenue available. Through this ever maturing relationship with God, students can turn their talents and education towards improving and developing their communities where cultural transformation of Africa can occur as Christ works through them. Now, I wanted to get your take on the statement, and as you know, part of it is because this discussion is already I'm up in the United States about the role of cultural Christianity, whether it's good for Christians to be involved in the public civil spheres. How should they be involved if they're supposed to be involved. Obviously you have thought about that somewhat. You're in an institution that's committed to not just spreading the Gospel but also making disciples in these various avenues. So could you speak to that, What do you mean by that and how does that look in your context? Yeah, it's interesting. A lot of people would say, especially when we first came, oh that's awesome, You're going over there to start a Bible college, or you're going over there to start a seminary. Now it's a classical Christian the real Arts university. We offer degrees in agriculture, business, education, theology, and we plan on adding things like engineering and the sciences and medicine and things of that nature. And the view is for it to be a transformational institution. And you know, I find it ironic, and Zambias and it ironic, right because they look at the West and they look at America and what they see is the fruit of Christian faithfulness, the fruit of Gospel faithfulness, and a culture that has been benefiting from that fruit right that is now turning around and is ashamed of the root that produced that fruit. While they're saying, you know, no, no, no, we want to experience those benefits that you are experiencing, and we believe that faithfulness to the Gospel is a means through which God will bring that about. So it's really ironic to look at, you know, all this stuff that's going on from both sides. And it's also very interesting to watch it, especially because you know, I remember when everybody started throwing around the term, you know, white Christian nationalism, and again All three of those words are important because they have intersectional value. Right, and and over here, this is a this is a nation that is a constitutionally Christian republic. Right. It is in the preamble of their constitution that Zambia is a Christian nation, and it is a nation that is making every effort to inculcate Christian values, to inculcate Christian Christian truth in order to reap some of the benefits that the West is really because here's here's the fact. If you look at the globe, right, you get out your globe and you ask yourself, where are the most prosperous, the safest, the least corrupt. You know, where are people the freest? Where are women the safest? And the answer is going to be trace the Protestant Reformation. Even if you get to Europe, Northern Europe versus Southern Europe, Western Europe versus Eastern Europe, the answer is trace the Protestant Reformation. And there is fruit. And so people here can be honest about that and say, yes, we see what God has done. And it's really ironic when I go back to the US to do an event where people are saying no Christianity is the evil hegemonic power that leads to the oppression of all of these intersectional minorities. Yeah, now, you know, I just have to say, for the record, I didn't say Christian nationalism. I didn't use that to you brought it up. So if anyone's going to get mad at this podcast, body was the one who brought that. I do have the Zambian Constitution in front of me. I do want to read you referenced it. It says we, the people of Zambia acknowledge the supremacy of God Almighty. Literally the first line declare the Republic a Christian nation while upholding a person's right to freedom of conscience, belief of really, and now it goes on to others, but that's how it starts. What's it like being in a country that values that You come from the United States in fact, and I know you're from Los Angeles, so my family's from Los Angeles. Los Angeles is not a very Christian place now and you're in a place that that's in their constitution. Do you see advantages to this? Yeah, there are advantages to it. But John, here's the deal. The people of Zambia would trade that preamble today for the fruit that you and I take for granted every day in the US, you know, and they would absolutely stop on a dime and say you can have the words, right because what they want is not just the words. What they want is that fruit. So Zambia, I mean, we don't need to go over all of Zambian history or anything, but it's why does is that fruit not there yet? You're part of building this right at the university. So is it the beginning stages of starting to reap this fruit? That you're a very young country. Yeah, it's a very young country. Got their independence in nineteen sixty four. Yeah, so it's a very young country. And not only is it a young country in terms of how long you know, the Republic has been independent, but it's young in terms of the population. I think the median age here is somewhere around seventeen. Oh wow, yeah, very young. That is very young. Yeah, what can missionaries? Okay, so there's young people probably even listening to this podcast thinking considering missions, considering maybe even going to Africa somewhere. Is that what's needed? What's needed right now? Is it more missionaries from the United States to come over or you know, what resources are needed. You know, my thinking has really grown and transformed on this issue over the last you know, years that we've been here, and you know, the bottom line is, we need people to be faithful. We need people to examine their gifts, talents, abilities and desires and to do so honestly and having examined those, to look for you know, God ordained opportunities to serve and to steward those gifts, talents, abilities and desires. For some people, you know, that's going to mean that's going to mean you know, leaving where they live and going somewhere else. You know, for us, we didn't do that because you know, somehow we'd always dreamed about, you know, being in Africa or this. It was God opened the door. There was a short term opportunity and we saw immediately a unique fit. And then that you know, unique fit began to make even more sense providentially as you know, the Zambia started working toward the African Christian University and there was an opportunity there that it seemed like I was just I was made for, you know, and I think people need to do that. You know, we've had people come here and not stay. Many people, you know, go to the mission field and end up not staying. And a lot of that is because we'reout following this process, right, We're not looking at our gift, talent, abilities and desires and trying to steward those within the context of God given opportunities. And and the other thing I'll say is this. You know, when we did this, you know, I believe in you know, two thousand and six, I knew that somehow I would be involved here. But two things had to happen. Number one, God had to call my wife, and number two, our elders had to affirm it. You know, I didn't go to my elders in Houston and say, hey, guys, you know God called us the Zambia were leaving. I don't believe that would have been appropriate, That would that would not have honored and respected the role of my elders in my life. And so we went to our elders and let them know, you know, what was going on, and asked them, right, we didn't tell them we asked them now of course when we when we did, you know, they had been watching this develop over eight years, you know, some of them, you know, just like we had so I think people will make a mistake when they skipped that step. They you know, look at something on the map, or you know, they go somewhere and all of a sudden, it's God has called me here. And then you announced to people who are supposed to speak into your life that you know, it's a done deal, rather than coming to those people seeking wisdom, seeking guidance, right and seeking their their input, and then we end up going you know, following a passion and and you know, not bearing very much fruit. Yeah, that that's excellent advice for people who are wondering what is God's will? What can I do? How do I invest? Yeah, elders are there for a reason. You know. One of the things that I've seen discussions on lately, and you would be in a unique position to talk about this, and it's it's so relevant for even missions work in general. Is when do you become identified with a people? In other words, you were born in Los Angeles, you've been in the United States. Now you're in Zambia. Are you Zambian? Do they have they accepted you into their culture? Do they see you as an outsider trying to help them? Where do you put yourself Yeah. If being here has has convinced me of anything, it is that I am not an African. Really really. No, No, I'm absolutely not an African. I'm an American. Through and through. We've been accepted, we've been embraced, you know, we've been loved and and all of that has has been has been great, it's been incredible. But but we are outsiders and everybody knows it, and people actually appreciate that, right, they appreciate the fact that, you know, we're outsiders and we're here. It's really interesting too, like being a black American serving in Africa. Whenever I meet Africans, whether it's here or whether it's you know, I was picked up one time at the airport. I was doing an event and you know, somebody picked me. I don't know if it was an uber or the group had sent a car service or whatever. And you know, my driver was an African man, and you know, we started talking and he found out that, you know, I was serving in Zambia and he was like, well why and said what do you mean you know what to help, I'm giving the whole story of you know, while we went, he goes, well, well, are you zambient? I said, no, is your wife Zabbien? No, well how about your parents? Know? He goes, well, why, you know, he could not comprehend that a person from America would go in that direction when most of the people over here would give everything they have to go in the other direction. And so people really, you know, they really appreciate that we've made the decision to come here, to be here, to bring our children here. But that's the thing. We don't see ourselves as more than we don't see ourselves as you know, we're here to serve. Yeah, that's actually that's a funny story. And I've heard similar things in other countries when Western missionaries and American missionaries go over it is a witness. I guess they see that and they're like, wow, they must really love us or love God enough to sacrifice, And yeah, no, that's awesome. You know. One of the things I was thinking too as you were saying that, you say, because you're black and you're in Zambia, and so there might be some people who think that's a more natural fit or something like that because of that. And the thing is, like you and I probably have much more in common than you or I, either of us would with someone in Zambia. Though when you talk about this in your book fault Lines, when you got there, you would you kiss the ground or you you cried? Was something like that? Where no so no on when when I got here for the first time, when the first time I came and visit visited, there was this this African man who kind of you know, eventually sort of embraced me as as a grandson. He's almost ninety years old, and I was, you know, coming to preach at his son's church. And he asked me, you know, he welcomed me, big old smile. He said, is this your first time in Africa? And I said, yes, sir, it is. He grabs me, he kisses my face and he says, son, welcome home. And I lost it. Man. You know, my father died, you know a few months before I came here for the first time, so you know, he always wanted to visit Africa. So that there was I lost it. I'm like, Lord, you got to give me what I need to be able to preach, you know, in the service. What it was, it was an incredibly emotional experience and the others emotional experience from me. And I write about this also at the end of fault lines is you know, when I went to the copper develop in northern Zambia, to the slave Tree, and a lot of people don't know this, but you know there's a slave route that went not you know, through on Golan, I through up you know, not everybody went through you know, Sierra Leone and Ghana or whatever, and anyway, there's this a catchment area where they would take the slaves, you know, before they would you know, take them off to the coast and ship them off. And it just it just dawned on me. You know, white people didn't come into the interior of Africa hunting for my ancestors. You know, my ancestors were sold by these people, first enslaved here and then you know, sold off to be enslaved in the West. And you know, growing up in America, growing up in American schools, growing up in American society, there's just this real simple, you know, black hat, white hat view of slavery that is very far from the truth. And it was it was really emotional to come to grips with that as well. Well. That's a special thing though, and it's one of the things I've been trying to let everyone know. There's a lot of young men that listen to this podcast, more so than I realized. And I've noticed a lot of insecurity with young men and identity issues in particular. They moved around fifty places. Their parents there aren't together. They had to abuse issues growing up. Maybe there's vices there. There's all kinds of things, and so one of the things, though it's not the only thing. Obviously being one in Christ and being fulfilled spiritually is the first thing. But I do think God made us to be parts of families, be parts of people's be have a history, have a rootedness, and and and I that was one of the I think I even might have teered up when I was reading your book a few years ago and saw that, because that's I don't have that experience, right, But I can. There's other things in my lineage I can. I can see God's hand. I can see how you know, my ancestors came here in Virginia as indentured servants, right, so we we were never rich. We were we none of my ancestors that I know of, we even were able to own slaves because we were always poor. But but but God used that to to bring us here and to give us opportunity. And I don't know that that's a there's a rootedness there. And even though I know you're not Zambian, I just felt like that was a beautiful thing and one to hear you say it. So thank you for sharing that story. Yeah, man, yeah, I know you're tired. We should probably land the plane for everyone, unless there was anything anything more you wanted to share. But people go to Salem Media if they want to find your teaching series on wokeness and social justice and if they want to get in touch with you or the mission, by the way, to make. Another to make another Zambian connection, do it one of the things that really like. And I don't know that I've even shared this in other places, but I was under contract with another publisher to write another book and it was a two book deal, one book and then another book to be named, and all this stuff happened with George Floyd, Black Lives Matter and all this sort of stuff, and I'm here in Zambia and all this is going on and Zambians and you know, I write about this, you know, in fault Lines as well, But you know, Zambians start talking about the police in America and so on and so forth, and I'm like, wait a minute, you know, because here the police stop you. You know, they have these real the stops on the side of the road and you know they'll find, you know, some kind of infraction and you got to pay your fine in cash on the side of the road. We're in a store one day and this guy starts, you yelling and moaning, and the cops are carrying him out and beating him as they take him out of the store, and we're just like looking with mouths of gate, you know, like what in the world. And everybody knows that, you know, we're Americans, just standing in the line in store. But they can tell we're Americans and they just look and say, oh, it's okay, he's a thief, right because because that's what the police do. And so when I'm here in this country and people here start talking about you know, American police and this, that and the other, I was like, you know what, this has been on the back burner for a decade. You know, it was hard to find people who you know, wanted to publisher, you know, back then. But I went back to the publisher and I said, listen, and this needs to be the second book. Actually it needs to go first. And they said, we agree, but not with us. And so they gave me an opportunity to find somebody else who would who would go ahead and publish fault Lines. And you know, providentially Salem was was willing to do that when when a lot of people weren't. But but that experience here of watching Zambians and knowing the absolute corruption and abuse in policing here. You know, I've been stopped in the United States and had courteous, professional, respectful, you know what I mean. But you know I've had some not as much of that as well, but you know, nothing like you know, nothing like the norm here. So I was like, now it's a bridge too far, man, I got to do it. It's kind of a Western luxury, isn't it. It's for people who have benefited so much from Christianity over so long and had prosperity that can even sit around debating whether or not the police are too brutal when when you see the rest of the world as you described, Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. I was actually just in Mexico not long ago with my wife and uh and and and the police there are different too, not quite to what you just described, but you know, much more direct and they'll stop you without you know reason, that's probable cause perhaps, And that's one of the things that I just think I take for granted living in the United States, like, well they have that probable cause, Like they can't just stop me right in other countries, Like what are you talking about? Yeah they can, right, Yeah. So anyway, well, yeah, it was great to see you and to talk with you, and yeah, thank you for all you're doing. Once again, God blessed. I appreciate your work, man, I really do. I'm grateful for it. And you you keep doing what you're doing, you know, keep plugging away, and at some point we've got to be in the same place at the same time. Again, it's been too long. Yeah, yeah, it will happen. Well, I've been talking to Jay, so we'll we'll figure it out at some point. But but yeah, I would love to see you in person. So God bless and uh, yes, have a good night you too, man.