The Church For The World Travis Allen Tom Buck Don Green Tom Ascol

All right, well, good afternoon everyone, If you could come on in and grab your seats. Hopefully y'all had a good lunch and you're ready for the rest of this afternoon. Look who the cat dragged in? Tom, It's good to have you here. I'm glad you were able to make it. Well, this is a fun time, of course, but it's a good time to get some gain some good wisdom from these men. Unscripted, So the theme of this panel discussion is the Church for the world, and so we want to really kind of zoom in on this issue of ecclesiology, the doctrine of the church, and what the place of the church in the world is. But first I want to ask the question why this conference on ecclesiology and why now? Why is it important? Right me? Okay, Well, just look what's happened the last two or three years. If there was any doubt prior to twenty nineteen or twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen, twenty twenty, then just kind of magnified it beyond any way you could ignore it. We are not thinking very well about ecclesiology and just the way churches responded or didn't respond to various things going on in the world, the way churches responded to the various mandates by civil authorities, various cultural ways and intimidation with ideologies and thinking, oh, then we've got to be loving and just on the basis of their definitions of love and justice. It just showed that the church, we need to think again about the church, that this is not an afterthought with God. God designed it. God's given us his word telling us how we are to live together as a church. And so praise God that in his kindness and providence he was he laid this on our hearts about maybe eighteen months ago, just before the last conference about what next, you know, what do we need to do next? And even next year's conference is going to be what is man the doctrine of the anthropology of the Bible, which again is just massively important. So trying to discern the times and days in which we live, what areas of scripture are we in need of kind of reasserting very clearly, and really, I guess when you ask that question, it's kind of a target rich environment, isn't it. You know, you could close your eyes and lucky dip and just open the Bible. So we need to talk about that, but this area, particularly the doctor and the church just kind of loomed large. So when we think about the church and the theme of this panel, the Church for the world, maybe it'd be good just to kind of start with some distinctions done. You talked preached from First John this morning and mentioned how the Apostle really makes that distinction between the church and the world and uses that word world in different ways. How is it that we distinguish between the church and in the world, maybe define church, define world, and how we should think about that. Yeah, I think, you know, I mean it starts at a fundamental level that the church is consist consists of those who have been born again, and we have to know, we have to know what conversion is before we can talk intelligently about the church. And uh. And so that's you know, woven into so much of First John's letter. You know, one thing, if I could just expand a little bit beyond that, I was thinking about this a lot during the lunch break. I just want to say a word of encouragement to all of you out there. You know, you look at you look at vote and Tom and Tom Buck and who I just met and Travis, Uh, you know, you you have a part to play in the ministry of men like this, to to pray for them and to encourage them, and and and to I if you benefit from their ministry, to to be active, and to look for ways to support them with your resources and even more importantly with your expressions, with your verbal expressions at contacting them with notes or something like that, because it what these guys do is difficult and it's not fun to be involved on the front lines of the conflict. Vote's book on the fault Lines, I think is the most courageous book that I've read in the past thirty years since John MacArthur's The Gospel according to Jesus. But we need, we need the help of people like you to support us and to pray for us in order to carry out, you know, the leadership role that God has given these men in the church. And so I just you know, it's just been on my heart to say that over the past couple hours. I said it, and now we can move on. So when you think about the Church for the world, what do we mean when we say world? What is the world? You studied first John, So he's asking you, Oh, you're asking me anybody, anybody. Look, I'm not the guide to domin dominate the discussion. The discussion here. You know, the world's used in different ways, in different terms. You know, it speaks of the world system that is aligned against God. And then I think, you, you know, we can just think about it in terms of the world that is outside the church, those that do not belong to the Church, that are still under the authority of the devil and are walking according to the ways of the world's Fesians chapter two. And so those that are not that do not belong to Christ, that have not been been born again, you know, they they constitute the world as in contrast with the Church as we've been discussing it here this weekend. So when we think about then that the church for the world, what is the place of the Church in the world, and then maybe more specifically, what is the place of the Christian in the world. Don you don't have to answer this one, You're off the hook. I didn't I didn't expect to Conrad and Bayway's message on Ephesians, I think, answers that question as he talks about Ephesians chapter four, the role of church leadership and equipping the saints for the work of the ministry in order to strengthen this body of Christ. We are a body. We are a body. We are a body. And as that body then is strengthened and equipped and builds itself up in love, taught by the pastors and the teachers in the church, equipped to do the work of the ministry, they grow up into the full stature of Christ. They are no longer tossed around by the winds and the waves of the culture and the world. But then they go back into their families, and you see, going into Ephesians five, you see the effect on husbands and wives as their lives are filled with the Word and filled by the spirit, as they in their marriage minister to one another, playing their particular parts their roles. You see parents with children. Then you see Christians go out into the workplace in Ephesians chapter six. So all of that is the Church advancing and taking territory in the world. When you get to Ephesians six twelve, the devil didn't like that, and so the devil starts to push back. And that's why Paul follows up all of that advance of the church into the world through the It's all fueled by the ministry of the church. It's all fueled and coming out of the ministry of the church, you get the pushback from the devil. He comes at the church, he comes at the Christian with fiery darts to take him down. And then there's we put on the full armor of God. So that's I think that's the connection. You see that flowing in Ephesians chapter four to six. Then you know, raises the question, then should the church be for the world or is the church just against the world. Well, I think Jesus makes it clear that we should be for the world. We're the salt right with the salt of the earth, with a light, and being salt and light. It's about having that preserving impact and influence, but also about having that that illuminating impact and influence. And so it's it's very clear that we have a role to play in both proclaiming the gospel to a lost and dying world so that God and his sovereign will will will will save some and and condemn others, but also in the broader sense, having the kind of impact that only we can have because of who we are and whose we are. So it's it's almost as if the when you militate against something, you are to militate against it, but always for something. And it's also almost as if the Church is militating against the world for the world, not for the world alone, but for the sake of the world. And I think, to build on what Travis said, it helps me to remember that our our battle is not with flesh and blood, but against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. You know, men are captive to the devil. They've been blinded by him. And so while we militate against the philosophies that they espouse, we look with mercy upon the people espousing them, because they are lost, just like we were, just like I was as a law student at Indiana University, you know, And so you know, I can't help but talk to an unsaved person and remember that they were they were just you know, I was, just like they were lost track of my verb tenses there. I was once like they are now. And and that that that softens the way that we speak to them. We're not we're not in a debating society just trying to to master somebody, to prove that we've we can you know, we want to win people to Christ. We want to win them, not simply opposed them. We oppose the philosophies while we're trying to win the people to Christ. And just to piggyback on that, the Satan and the demonic realm, they are fixed in their rebellion against God. There is no repentance, There is no change for the demonic realm. They are fixed in their rebellion and they are going to be consummate, fixed enemies against God and his people. So there's no change for them. The people who can change. While there's breath, there's hope for the human race. And so we are in a sense an extension of Christ's first Advent where he came to proclaim to preach the Kingdom of God. That's what we do. We enter into the world. So the Church is in a sense for the world, just as much as Christ was for the world to preach the Gospel to the lost. So I couldn't I couldn't say it better, but that's I just want to add that we love these people. I think last weekend, in support of what's going on in Canada and all across the country, many of our pulpits were preaching in text. If it wasn't First Corinthians six nine to eleven, it was something akin to that. And the message at the end in verse eleven such after listening on long list of sins, such were some of you, but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of Jesus the Lord, Jesus Christ, in the spirit of our God. So yeah, as long as we are here, that's our job. That's what we're going after. The church is for the world and nobody else has that job. I mean, God gave it to the church. We can't expect anybody else to straighten that out or deal with those things. And we have the Gospel, which is why we must preach the Gospel. It's the only message, I hope, Christ, the only savior this world has. If we don't proclaim Christ, then we can't expect anybody else to and people will not have opportunity to hear the incredible grace of God in Jesus Christ. And when we see that gospel being abused and undermined and misconstrued, if we love people, then we have got to be willing to stand firm and say no if you do that, and you sell them a false gospel, then all you're doing is sending them to hell with false hope. And so it's out of love for people and love for the world of people that we would take these stands and try to do what God's called us to do as the church, which is to proclaim and defend the truth of God that's been revealed to us. Can the church operate in any other way for the world or in favor of the world. Is the proclamation of the Gospel? The only thing that the church does for the world. Well, I think I think the most important aspect of an answer to your question is it's the primary thing that we do. It's the only thing that it's the unique thing that we do is to preach the Gospel, to defend it and all of that. And what Tom just said was just brilliantly stated. And we have to have a heavenly mindset about it. We have to keep eternity in mind. And it doesn't do any good to feed the poor. If they go to hell, you know, they go to hell on a full stomach, they're still going to hell. And so we need to we've got to keep that clear in our mind to know what our mission is and to and to keep in mind the spirit with which our Lord, you know, spoke to the rebellious Jews. He wept over Jerusalem. And you know how many times I wanted you to gather you under my wings, and yet you would not have it. And he wept over them. And you know, if I was more like Christ, I would weep over the people that I preached to. But you know I'm Scottish, and so you know, you kind of restrain your emotions even when you shouldn't when thinking about this distinction then, between church and world. It's it's hard to get away, then from the distinction between church and state, because it's hard to conceive of a world without human governments. And it seems as though over the past several years, Romans thirteen has been used as justification to comply with just about any mandate that any government would place upon us. And so and you help us think through Romans thirteen the way that the Church should view government mandates lawful legislation and enforcement, unlawful enforcement or is there a third category? Are there things indifferent that the church has to use its judgment on. Let me read a few verses from Romans thirteen, because we talk about a lot and sometimes we don't read it, and we just need to make sure we get the words in front of us. Let every person be subject to the governing authorities, for there's no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resist what God is appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment, For rulers are not a terror to conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority, then do what is good and you will receive approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is the servant of God and Avenger, who carries out God's wrath on the wrow longdoer. And that's enough. I think that's first four verses. And so government's ordained by God, there's no doubt about that. And to rebel against government with any kind of high handedness, you're rebelling against what God's ordained. That does not mean that everything government says or does is right and ought to be approved. There's a time to rebel. We obviously know that Acts five tells us that with the apostles who said we must obey God rather than men, and okay, I mean they're telling us so it's clear. I think for most Christians, when the government requires sin, then we are obligated to disobey the government. And I don't think we have a lot of disagreement about that. Maybe some on the edges, but most evangelicals would agree with that. Where I think we get confused today is when the government starts requiring things that are not in and of themselves inherently sinful, and they say, well, okay, you know the government's requiring us to wear yellow shirts on Tuesday? Is there anything sinful about wearing a yellow shirt on Tuesday? Or if the government's requiring you to wear a little beanie hat that has twirley things on it, If the government tells me to do that, I'm going to do that. It's a evangelical guy said this not too long ago, and it sounds like Romans thirteen. You know, Okay, we use comply because they told you to do it. But that's a misunderstanding of what God has ordained government to do, and we wouldn't use that same logic in any other realm, and fundamentally it's fundamental. Ultimate authority comes from God. All human authority is delegated authority. It's delegated by God. All legitimate human authority is delegated by God. So if we use that same language, well if the church, if the state tells me to wear a yellow T shirt on Tuesday, I'm gonna do it. Okay. Well what about if a husband tells his wife to do thirty sit ups on Wednesday? Was that okay? I want to know that's patriarchical abuse? Right? Or what if the elders tell you that you cannot use mayonnaise, you can only use mustard? Well, yes, it's sinful. No, it's not sinful. Well what's wrong with we see what's wrong with those things? Right? They're out of their lane. They're out of their lane. The government has a lane, and we live in a day of statism where the state is coming across as if it's God. The state gives you your rights. No, the state doesn't give us our rights. God gives us our rights. Up until recently, the United States has recognized those rights, and so we will pretend we will defend those rights. So that's where we need clear thinking. We God ordains spheres of governments, spheares of authority to be exercised, and the state, the magistrate has a sphere, the family has a sphere, the church has a sphere. Individuals have a sphere, and you could multiply them into workplaces and ball teams and other things as well. But within those spheares that authority that has been delegated by God, the ultimate authority, must be exercise in accordance with His purpose for that sphere. If you don't do that, you're going to be in trouble pretty quick. And if I might add, the text is very clear that they're ministers of God, not miniature God's Amen Amen, deacons of God. Right, And so I think it says they're that they're to reward good and to punish evil. Well, who gets to determine what good and evil is? God gets to determine that? And this in the same way, why don't I have a right to tell my wife to do thirty sit ups even though I never do, because God's word doesn't give me that authority. I have authority only in so far as it is submitted to the authority of God. Whether it be with my children or my wife, or my church, or my neighbor, or whoever it may be, God's word divines those same thing for the government. The government has a sphere of authority that's extended them from God's word. This is God's world, it's his rules. He's given us a book, and if we would just be diligent to follow what God has said, we will clear up a lot of the problems that we're dealing with today. And that's I think that's a tantamount to what we're dealing with. Yeah, there's a passage that I've been sharing with people to help them think through this, because part of the confusion is that we read Romans thirteen in a way that says that anybody, if anybody in a position of authority tells you to do anything, then you're supposed to do it. Well. The same guy who wrote Romans thirteen is the guy we find in Acts, chapter sixteen. The Philippian jailor has been converted and things have gone crazy verse thirty five. But when it was day, the magistrates sent the police saying let those men go, And the jailer reported these words to Paul, saying the magistrates have sent to let you go. Therefore, come out now and go in peace. So the magistrate sends the police, who tells the jailer. So we've got three levels of civil authority that say to Paul, go now. According to the way some people read Rohan's thirteen that the next statement ought to be so Paul went but verse thirty seven. But Paul said to them, they have beaten us publicly, uncondemned men who are Roman citizens, and have thrown us into prison, And do they now throw us out secretly? No, let them come themselves and take us out. So he disobeyed three layers of governing authority because they were not acting in accordance with the law of Rome. Folks, our governing authority is not anybody who holds an office, right, because even the people who hold those offices, they have an obligation to operate in accordance with what governs that office. Our constitution, and that has an obligation to operate in accordance with the law. And the lawgiver of the universe was God. And so I think it's very important for us to realize that we haven't thought through Romans thirteen correctly. When our response to everything is oh well, Romans thirteen, So just do it. Because the guy who wrote that didn't see it that way and acts that passage in Act sixteen. What was Paul doing Why was he doing it well? That he was sending a message, No, you're not operating in the way you're supposed to operate under God. Paul was loving people as well. If they abused him this way, then they'll abuse other people this way. But what do you think those magistrates did the next time they got a Roman citizen that they arrested. I don't think they're going to mistreat them as quickly as they did Paul. And so it is a loving thing to do to help civil authorities remember or educate them if that they've never known what their realm is and how they are to operate and exercise the authority delegated to them from God in that realm. It's loving to people for us to do that. I think that brings it right back to where we are in the local church and our role in the ministry and the local churches. Pastors, shepherds, teachers in the local church. We're teaching Christians to think just like that, to make distinctions between good and evil according to Godd's word law and gospel according to God's Word. Because Paul could have said, ah, you know what, it's okay. I'm not offended by this unjust jailing. I'm not offended by the beating it personally. I can take this. I'm pretty you know, I've been through a lot. He didn't think just about himself. He thought about beyond himself. He thought about other Romans would be likewise treated if Rome continues to violate really the law of God. So he held him to account for that. He spoke in protest. He called them to account. He they had to humble themselves and come and speak to them. He thought about beyond himself to others. And that's how pastors and teachers in the local church need to teach all of our folks in the church to think just like that, not to think about just their own isolated situation, but to think in terms of the wider good for the public as well. If I might just take a second to look at this Romans thirteen, because this is Paul's not even intending here to give a blank check to government. Because if we look at the context, look at Romans twelve, just before that he's dealing specifically with in verse seventeen, he says, never pay back evil for evil to anyone respecting what is good in the sight of all men. So he's talking about how do you deal when someone does evil to you? And I don't think this is about the church at this point. I think it's in society. And this is why he goes to government. So he says that there and what does he say down in verse nineteen that God has written vengeance's mind, I will repay right, So he's saying to them, don't repay evil for evil. Don't take vengeance into your own hand. That's not your sphere of authority. That's what he's dealing with. Then he goes to government because that's the government sphere of authority. Let me prove it from the text. Look down at verse five, in verse verse four down in chapter thirteen, for it government is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil where that's picked up from chapter twelve. If somebody does what's evil, be afraid for it does not bear the sword in vain, for it is a minister of God. And what an avenger? The same word that's used up in chapter twelve for vengeance. If you want to deal with when someone does evil to you in this world, that's truly evil, that's not your severe of authority to go and take it upon yourself to do vigilante justice. That's God's realm to do vengeance. And he is appointed a minister to deal with that in this world. And that's the government. That's what Romans thirteen is about. It is not a blank check that the government, whatever it says, can do whatever it says. They're miniature gods. They're ministers of God with a purpose. And if we would see the context I think would help us much better. Yeah, I think that's helpful, and that's really clarifying the government as a deacon, a servant of God, God's law coming down from us in the governments, they need to legislate in accordance with God's law. But it does raise then some other questions. That goes to his master for directions and to know what he's supposed to do. Well, then how does the deacon of the government, how's the servant of the government go to God and find out what they're to do? How do they go to God and find out what the law of God is that they're supposed to legislate according to they get it from the Church, because we're the pillar in the ground of the truth. This is why the Church cannot abandon the public sphere, because we're the stewards of those truths. And so we preach to all men, right, and it's our duty, it's our obligation to instruct people in all spheres as to what it means and what it looks like for them to obey the word of God. Can I pivot a little bit back to what all of you men said so well, because I think there's a question that hasn't been answered yet in it, and you know, my legal mind kind of goes to where, you know, where the authority is to make the decision? How would you respond vote or tom, Tom? How would you respond to the question who gets to make the decision about whether the government has overstepped its authority? Does each individual Christian get to make that for themselves? Do they do it under the authority of their elders? And in response to leadership? And how does this keep us from going to a situation? But in the Book of Act or the Book of Judges where every man is just doing whatever seems right in his own eyes. If you guys could address that, I think that might advance the discussion even more. Yeah. Well, again it comes down to the sphere. So if the government were to say all husbands must require their wives to do thirty sit ups on Wednesday, and so the government makes a law about that, I'm going to say, you're out of your lane and I'm not going to do that, especially in this nation. This is another layer we need to bring out. We are a constitutional republic. The highest law of this land. Human authority is not a person. It's a document. It's a constitution. And by God's grace, we've got a wonderful constitution. Not perfect, but it's wonderful. And so that constitution recognizes these things because it was framed in a time when this type of thinking was more common than it is now. So we have that. If I were going to go to a country that had a law on the books that says every Wednesday wives have to husbands have to make wives do thirty sit ups a day on Wednesdays, if I were going to go there to make the gospel known, my wife and I say, okay, we got to do this, you know, So Wednesdays you're going to be doing thirty set ups because that's what the government says, and we're going to do that so that we can preach the gospel to this government and tell them this is a stupid law. You know. I mean, but that's a long term agenda because they need the Gospel, they need the witness. So there's a difference there, but I'm making that decision myself. I'm voluntarily choosing to do it. It's the difference between Paul voluntarily circumcising Timothy and refusing to circumcise Titus. Same issue on the surface, significantly different issues when you look at what's going on and the pressure and the reasons behind those two decisions. So with that, as a husband, father in the home, I'm responsible that elders in a church, that's where you know our elders, like I think most elders. Back in twenty twenty, we were confused whenever we hear pandemic millions of people did body bags being ordered? You know, you got to shut down with Okay, you know, I mean, this is something unprecedent, we don't know, so we pulled back. We think the state has authority in emergency situations to I mean, if there was a fire running rampant through our community and the state put out, our city says you can't go there, the streets closed, we wouldn't say, oh no, no, we're the church. You're not going to keep us from going there. I mean we would say that makes common sense, and we agree with that, and we're going to do it. But after a while, you know, the fifteen days to lower the curve became fifteen months to do what we say, And after a while we realized, wait a minute, no, no, here, we've assessed this. We disagree, we're going to meet. And I think that's how we do. We have different spheres of authority given to us by God, and whenever one begins to infringe upon the other, and there's overlap because I'm a citizen, I'm a husband, I'm a church member, and so they overlap. But whenever one starts trying to dictate to the other in activity or specifics that are given by God to that sphere, the right authority in that sphere has to make the judgment. I think I kind of looked at at it at the beginning this way. I don't know what your girl's thoughts would be interested in hearing it. But I said from the beginning that it was never a Roman's thirteen issue, this particular thing about the asking about the pandemic, because our government never had the authority at any point under our law to limit our gatherings. So I looked at it all along as a first timothy To situation, where that I told our folks that what we're doing is we're looking at the authority, trying to do the best we can to lead a tranquil in quiet life. And so when we can, sometimes we may acquiesce to certain things that we may not necessarily agree with, or maybe it's because of that, but I don't think we ever surrendered, even biblically authority to the government. And that's what you're saying as well, So I think it fits with that first time. Let me ask you this. So, if there was a fire raging for blocks around the church building where you're meeting, and you have a six o'clock meeting for your church, it's a stated meeting. Everybody's expected to be there, they've all coveted to be there, and the fire department and the police department have blockades up. Would you think you would be legitimate to say we don't have to obey this, We're going to go now, because I think that does fit in a different category, because like with the pandemic, we didn't know the situation. We were trusting and trying to live peace into quiet lives, even though there were still some questions about how real this is. But you know, you go back even to old Testament law require where there are certain things are required for the safety of the people, or laws that could be made. So I think any that is in the sphere of the government, and so I think that if there were millions that were dying, that would be in the sphere of the government to help in those situations. But those are extreme situation, those are those are emergency situations, and when it first happens, you may not have immediate clarity. But yeah, I agree, Yeah, And there are areas where those things overlap and it's much clearer. I mean, if you look back here, there are exit signs that that's a building, right that you know, fire extinguishers and you know all these sorts of things, and somebody had to come in here and check these beams. And but but that's because the church decided to build this building within you know what I'm saying with with within this this this municipality that had rules about what you do when you build a building. So this building would be an example of that that appropriate overlap, if you will. But the state can't come into this building and say this is what you have to do inside this building, because that's not their sphere. The way that any government will know whether it is executing just laws is when it is fixed to God's definitions of good and evil, right and wrong, just and unjust. And that's why in Deuteronomy seventeen, the instructions for a king is when he is seated on his throne, his royal throne, he's to write a copy of this law, this instruction for himself on a scroll in the presence of the lytical priests, in the presence of the religious community, you could say religious authority. It is to remain with him, and he's to read from it all the days of his life, so that he may learn to fear the Lord his God, to observe all the words of this instruction, and to do these statutes. Then his heart, oh could we use this today, will not be exalted above his countrymen. He will not turn from this command to the right or to the left, and he and his sons will continue ruling many years over Israel. Sadly, after David Solomon, they departed from this. There was nobody writing this law, no king as he send it into the throne, writing down the law of God. In fact, they governed it, brought it to him. When you get to the New Testament. Herod the Great and the herods following him, they didn't make copies of the law either. That's why John the Baptist said, it is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife. And if Herod had responded to that in repentance and humility, he would have said, what law is that I've heard tell? And so he would go back to if God had granted him repentance, go back to this law. This law is the highest expression of any human law, and so any human law, any government's law that most approximates the word of God, an understanding of right and wrong, good and bad, just and unjust, evil, wicked, all the rest. Any human law, any human government that most approximates this is going to understand that more. And there is a spectrum of evil and righteous, approximating evil and righteous according to the Word of God. So I think again, in the Church, we're trying to teach Christians to understand this, that they may speak forth what John the Baptist did speaking to Herod in hopes that those governments would and government leaders and officials, their conscience would be provoked, their conscience would be pricked, and they'd return to the law of God. I think that's good and helpful. Can you help us then to distinguish them between what you're saying about calling governments to submit themselves to the law of God, and you know both you and Tom have gone to the Old Testament. Then to kind of draw that out, what's the difference in between that and more of a theonomic view of what governments should be, and maybe somebody give a definition of theonomy, and then distinguish what you gentlemen have been saying from theonomy well as I understand theonomy or Christian reconstruction. It's the idea is we want to move all human governments in the Church. It's part of the Church's mission mission to take this from the Old Testament and try to move all governments back to this law. I don't agree with that. I don't think that that's in the New Testament era, the air of the church, where you got a Roman thirteen situation and you do have gentile governments that are predominating around the world. You don't have this theocratic kingdom. So we're in a different phase of the redemptive program, and so I don't see that that's the church's mission. The church's mission is Matthew twenty eight to go make disciples, to evangelize, and disciple. And it's through that evangelism and discipleship that we teach people to basically the threefold use of the law, to call them to repentance by holding up the laws of mirrors so they can see God's righteousness and their unrighteousness. In contrast to that, they hold up the laws a protest against the wickedness of the world. And they also hold up the law of Christians to teach them about the I think Tom use the word word last night. Train tracks. Those are the train tracks down which our life rolls most righteously, smoothly, and with great rejoicing. So we're trying to teach Christians to understand law and gospel and to preach that to the world. So I don't think I don't think we're trying to I don't think there's any theonomists up here, So I don't think we're trying to move the That's not the mission of the church is to try to Christianize the entire world and bring them all under the Old Testament, Theonomy of Israel. Yeah, it's an important question because theonomy has become a common point of discussion among Christians who are wanted to think seriously about the overreach of government over the last few years, and there are more and more people say, no, I am a theonomist. I am a theonomist. And there's different ways they mean that. There's kind of a de facto theonomy where everybody wants things done on the basis of their sense of what is best, right, good and true, And so everybody's a theonomist. And you probably have heard somebody say that to you. You know, we're all theonymous. Okay, you know, if you're just talking about that, that's that's fine. But that didn't get to the heart of the issue. The heart of the issue is do the civil laws of the Old Testament? Are they still in service? Are they obtainable. Are they are they? Should they be actionable today? That's the question. And you know we're sixteen eighty nine people. The confession of faith that we adopumn is a second London Confession. And let me just read to you chapter nineteen, paragraph four of the sixteen eighty nine. And this is fascinating because I've had people who tell me they're sixteen eighty nine confessional Christians, who say, but I'm a theonomist. I don't think those two things go together. You know, I think you go back and look at this. So here's what chapter nineteen versus or paragraph four says to them. The Israelites, he also gave sundry judicial laws civil laws. But Israel they were comprised of image bearers. They were people, but they were a worshiping community as well, and they were a civil community. So God gave them moral laws as people. He gave them ceremonial laws as a worshiping community, and he gave them civil laws as a body politic. And so as a body politic, they served a purpose. That purpose is over now for the agenda that God was working toward. As a worshiping community, they had a purpose. He gave them laws for that. That purpose is over, but they're still people, and we're still people, and so the we're true Jews, true Israelites, were people not living under Old Testament economy. So here's the paragraph to the Jews or to Israel. He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired together with the state of that people as a nation, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution, they're general equal only being of moral use. Now last phrase is just dynamite, and that's what we're talking about. You look at the laws for the parapatet, the fence around the rooftop so that people didn't fall off, you know, it was required. Well why was that? Because you know you love people, and love loving people means you don't set things up for that. Or the goring of an ox, your ox, goring somebody else's ox. It's got to be repaid restitution. Okay, Well, there's righteousness in that. False witnesses that try to convince the magistrate to execute someone or to find someone, if they're determined to be false witnesses, then what was going to happen to the person that they're lying about should now be happening to the false witnesses. Well, there's righteousness, there's general equity in that, and we aught to applaud that, and we can learn from that. That doesn't mean we take every statute and every penalty from the Old Testament code given to Israel and say this is what is righteous today. If America was a righteous nation, we'd be stoning homosexuals. No. I mean you can't make that case and be a sixteen eighty nine confessional person. You can look at that and say, Okay, you know, here's some general righteous principles embedded in those case laws, embedded in those penalties. And can we distract that and apply it in a state today? Yeah, you can, but you can apply it in different ways. So that's the difference. All. Yes, here's what we need to say to people that are frustrated with the churches kind of folding their wings and going and hiding in the shadows because the government says do this or don't do that, and Christians who intuitively recognized that's not right. We shouldn't be cowering into that. We shouldn't be doing everything we're told just because the government tells us to do it, and they hear the theonymos saying yeah, that's right, you need to be a theonomist, and they run over there and they say, oh wow, this is great. Man. You guys got an agenda. You guys got a clear program, and they fall into that. Those of us who understand the confession, we ought to be saying no, no, no, no, look that's wrong. This ain't right either. You know, it's got some headaches in it. But look at what God has given us and what our forefathers understood very clearly. There's general equity in those civil laws. Let's go mind them, mind that equity and see how we can apply it today. Vody. Last night you preached from Matthew sixteen, and you got into verse eighteen there in chapter sixteen, But then you didn't necessarily address the gates of hell that will not prevail against the Church. I was hoping maybe we could discuss that a little bit, especially because that's where we see ecclesiology and eschatology kind of come together. That's where we see the Church both militant and triumphant. And so maybe you could unpack that verse a little bit for us tomorrow. Man, then mine get Revelation twenty one tomorrow. All right, all right, you know, no preview. Yeah, well, it's interesting that that is that allusion to our triumph. Right, that the gates of Hell will not prevail, he says on the track, I'll build my church. Right, he's talking about his church writ large, not any individual congregation. Right, And the gates of Hell will not prevail against his church. Individual churches will come and go, churches have lifespans. Churches are born, and they grow, and they thrive, and churches die. Right, But the church writ large, the gates of Hell will not prevail against the church. There are countries where the gospel just flourished, where today you can't find the gospel. Right. That doesn't mean that the gates of Hell have prevailed. Why, Because his kingdom is a kingdom without borders, without limit, It is boundless, and it's undefeated. What's being referred to there with the gates of hill not prevailing, that's helpful. So how do we address the culture, address this world as the church without falling prey to like a conservative pragmatism or allowing the culture then to direct the message of our pulpits, of our congregations, of our churches. I think one safeguard against that is a regular expository ministry of the Word, because you've got to deal with the text and the order that the Spirit laid it down. And so it's not your agenda that's setting the tone for the church. It's God's agenda, the Spirit's agenda, Christ's agenda, He's shepherding the church through that text. Doesn't mean you can't do a one off topical message, and many of us did that last week in support of you know, John MacArthur's initiative and the James Coates and the Canadian Guys initiative. We rejoice to do those things and support those things, but sometimes the church needs a topical series on something for its health and life. But the predominant, faithful ministry of the Word and expository fashion following the argument of the text, that's the Holy Spirit, and it's Christ himself shepherding the church to that text. Yeah. The other thing that I would add again just to kind of build on what Travis said, is to understand that you always have to start with scripture to define your philosophy of ministry and to define your pulpit ministry and what you're going to do as a pastor, and the Book of Titus couldn't be more clear that elders are to hold fast the faithful word, which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. We have to. We have a positive duty to teach the doctrine Christian biblical doctrine to the church that builds them up, and that's going to be separate and apart from the controversies of the world. Then when the world's controversies or mandates impact the church, then we refute those as is required. But as Martin Lloyd Jones says so well in his book on Preaching and Preachers, we cannot build a church, We cannot build a long term effective ministry simply on polemics, simply on attacking the error of others, either in the church or in the world. We have a positive duty to teach sound doctrine apart from those things, and then when the things raise their head, then we have to refute them. But there must be a balance, and Travis said it, well, you know the cornerstone of that balance is expositional teaching. And if we teach the Bible, then we're going to be on safeground. Yeah, and that in part highlights the importance of conferences like this because we're not in the context of a local congregation, in the pulpit of a local congregation exposing the word, but rather we're taking some time to address specific issues that are helpful for congregations in this particular culture that we that we live in. Yeah, I address this in the preconference. But when we were living here in Houston and the church we planted in Houston, we had a number of people who came to our church. Some of them moved across towns, some of them moved from other states to come be part of our church because you know, they would they would hear me at a conference like this, you know, addressing issues, and they would think, oh, yeah, I want to be at a church, you know, where there's a pastor who's who's bold and addresses these issues. And then they would come to our church and spend you know, six months in the Book of Exodus, and they realized that we were committed to systematic exposition and not just addressing the issue of the day, and then they left. This happened on multiple occasions, right, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, we want to we want a church where the pastor will do well. I mean, if you if you find a church like that, I want to warn you. If you find a church like that where the pastor is always, you know, addressing polemics against the issue of the day, it's going to be filled with polemical people who have unbalanced theology and fight about everything. It's not going to be a healthy church. It's just not. Yeah, if I could just tell one quick story, there's an eighty year old woman in our church and we were going through a time where some people were leaving the church, and she approached me to talk to me. And in those times in ministry where you know there's people leaving, you feel a little you know, you're a little bit on edge when someone else comes up to talk to you and is in one man in some manner or another. She said, I want to talk to you about what I want to say something to about what's happening in the church. So I'm going to brace for another negative conversation. And she said, she said, you preach people in and then just preach them out, and you know, and that's kind of what you were saying voting. You know, people come because they have a preconceived idea of what your pulpit ministry is and what they want, and they project that on your pulpit. But if you continue being faithful and preaching verse by verse and appropriate topical messages, those same people are going to say that's not Some of those people are going to say that's not what I want, that's not what I signed up for, and I'm out of here and they're gone six months later. That's not a failure in ministry. That's a success of the Word having its cleansing effect on the people of God. Well, what does that amen. One of the problems that we have is just biblical literacy in our churches. And the reason there's biblical literacy is because we're not teaching people how to study the Word of God and good sound preaching week in and week out, or will helping them see in the text just like a moment ago, look at Romans twelve and thirteen to help them see how the context is there. They people don't know how to read their Bibles, and so they're susceptible to anybody that comes along to grab a verse and give it to them, and they never know how to look at that in its context, how to understand it. And so when we preach, we're teaching people how to handle their Bibles. And if we're preaching all the time by means of polemics, as you said, and constantly attacking topics, that's how we're teaching people to handle our Bible. So no wonder we're producing people like that. Teach people to love the Word and get into the Word and allow the Word to rule over them. And the best way for us to do that as pastors is to preach in such a way that people see that we are men under authority, not the authority, and we preach the Word in such a way that they can see that our pastor is tethered to the text. He's under the authority of God's words. So I should be too. Our entire ministry ought to be, as well, said, Our entire ministry ought to be that. And at registers subtly but clear message. We register a protest against a world that demands that we always be caught up on the news of the day, to speaking what's relevant, what's new, always innovating, always adapting, always keeping up with the culture, and just by virtue of preaching the text and being in submission under the authority of the text, and all of our people seeing that we are submissive to the text, We're conforming ourselves to a pattern of sound words. We want to make sure we're very conscious, intentional about connecting ourselves back to what's old, to what's written. Is there anything more relevant than God's voice? No, I think that was only rhetorical travisy. I wanted to make sure that he wasn't asking the question. Okay, so final question for us this afternoon. You know, the theme of the conference is the church militant and triumphants. Is there a danger to triumphalism than in the church? Tom says yes, Well, I'm gonna talk about that next time and in the next hour, So I'll just hold off from now, okay, and all deferred a time since I don't know what he's gonna say. Yeah, there surely is, you know, I mean, this is a constant danger, right, It's look at us, look what we've done, and we're better than them. And if everybody was like us, how much better things would be. I mean, we just forget I mean, what do we have that we hadn't been given. It's nothing. I mean, it's all by God's grace. And I've talked to some of these guys and others here about the grace of God on display in this conference, even in how it has come together with the difficulties that we've had along the way. I mean, I can't count the number of people and said, men, you know Don Green's messages have just ministered my soul. Well, praise God for that. I mean, when James texted me, so I got turned away at the border, I'm trying to find a hotel, go sleeping for a few hours right to drive back. I was heartbroken and we prayed. We'd planned, we strategized to get him across the border, and it just didn't work. But I wasn't un done by it, because God's always good and He's always working. And then Don clearer in his schedule to come and be here. That's God's grace. We didn't plan that. So we have zero reason to have a triumphalistic spirit as if we have arrived and we've done it. No, if God's shown us anything, it's by his grace, not by our wits or wisdom or diligence. And we need to praise Him. So we have no reason to look down our nose at anybody. We have every reason to live with hope and joy no matter how bad things get or what the challenges are, because our God is always working. And if we keep that thing straight in our minds, then we're going to not very quickly fall into that triumphlistic spirit. Yeah, I know, if we're just mindful of the remnants of sin that are still in us, and you know we're fighting our own spiritual battles with temptation and discouragement and those kinds of things. You know, it's it's never going to be found in the man. It's always looking up to Christ. Well, thank you very much, gentlemen, for your time, for your wisdom. It's been a beneficial time here