Biblical Anthropology Panel Tom Ascol, Bradley Pierce, Paul Washer, Joel Beeke

Well, I'd like to invite our panelists to come on up here. These are our speakers over the past day and those speakers that will be speaking throughout the rest of the conference. So don't be shot, you guys, come on up, give him a hand. I would remind you that we are going to have another panel discussion later today and then the Q and a discussion tomorrow morning. And again, if you want to ask questions, you can send those questions into us eight eight eight. Five two five. Sixteen eighty nine. That's right, that's the number that you can send those questions into. All right, well, brothers, welcome, Thank you for doing this and having this discussion with us. This is a panel discussion on biblical anthropology. And so the first questquestion that I want to ask you just to get us started off with, and this can be for anyone, what is biblical anthropology? As our minds are tired and we're trying to make sense of big words, what is it? It's the biblical doctrine of man. The biblical doctrine of man, and it would be opposed to other doctrines of man. Or the biblical doctrine of God, or it's just a category. So anthropology is a doctor. It's what the Bible teaches about man, because everybody has opinions about these subjects. People have opinions about human human beings. The Bible defines what is human. The Bible defines what constitutes humanity. And as we've heard last night or yesterday, that God made man in his own image, and so what the Scripture teaches about humanity constitutes biblical anthropology. Okay, I think that sets us up well for kind of where I want to go in this discussion. You know, there's a great difference between the way that man understands himself to be and how God understands man to be. And Paul, you said last night you referenced the fact that you know, previously natural man was blinded to spiritual truths, but at least had some understanding of natural truths. It seems that today, in our current culture, natural man is blinded to spiritual truths but also can't see natural truths as well. And so maybe this is for all of you, gentlemen, paints a picture for where we're at culturally, the distinction between how God views man and how he reveals the way that He sees us in the word and the way that our culture understands man. And then how do we address those differences effectively? I believe that hello, Okay, when we study history as far back as what some would say fifth century BC, the beginning of philosophy with Thales and others, as it progresses, we can see that even in natural man there is some use of reason, and that is grace. And we can see that all through in many, many different societies and cultures. We can see the restraining and helping grace of God. Because let's just face it, if God were to pull back all restraint from man, you know this, our society, the world itself would not even last but a few hours. But God restrains the evil of man and also promotes reason even among the natural man, so that he can carry out a work of salvation, a work of redemption through his son Jesus Christ. There comes times, though, where man has violated so much the Gospel, the person of Christ, that judgment comes upon a culture. But also you have to understand something when when when God did what he did at Babel, it was judgment, but it was also a work of grace. It separated nations, and that's very, very important why if if my can't if my finger has cancer, I can cut off my finger and save the rest of my body. When there are nation states and there's enough separation between them, sometimes moral contamination, a moral infirmity can be isolated and judged. The problem is is when all the nations come together and there's there they stand as a united whole, and they stand against God, then there's no member to cut off in order to save the whole. And in some ways that's where we're headed. If we're not already there. The pollution that comes out of Hollywood this morning will be in Singapore or even the darkest jungle of Peru or Asia by the evening. And so we're seeing something that maybe we've not seen since Babel. And that means that we don't give up. It means that we work even harder. Yeah, it makes one long for the day when the nations will be inherited by Yahweh. When there are nations yet all of them belong to the Lord. Culturally speaking, you know, understanding where we are, even just specifically in the US, what are some of the major distinctions that the rest of you brothers see between the way that the culture understands man to be and what God understands man to be. I think the most significant aspect of that difference is the question of creation. There is a world of difference between someone who believes that there is a God and that man was created by God and man was created for God, and someone who believes that man is just the result of a cosmic accident. There are significant implications there, and I think many of the things that we see, many of the things that we disagree on, many of the things that we're at war with our culture about, really come down to that it is there a God? Is that why we're here? Does that give us our purpose? If it does, their implications for every area and aspect of life. Yeah. I might also just to add a personal note, I've been engaging in an airplane evangelism I call it for the last thirty some years. I have a commitment between God and me that I will speak to every person I sit next to. It's getting harder today with people putting earplugs in. But. I've noticed a tremendous difference from thirty years ago. Twenty thirty years ago. If I flew over Europe, I discovered that the persons sitting next to me knows next to nothing about Christianity already then, But an American sitting next to me almost always had, you know, somewhat of a god fearing grandmother or father or something, and knew the Bible and said he believed in God. Very different. I mean, you fly above Europe and the young man sitting next to me, he says, you really believe in God. I can't believe that you believe in God. Six percent of Europeans go to church today. America's still close to fifty. But what I've noticed in the last ten years is that when it comes to evangelizing Americans on the plane, they have a little bit of background knowledge, but very very little. It's fading fast. We're just we're just like one generation behind Europe, and so we've got a huge problem. As I loved what Paul Washer said last night, it's not just that the judgment of God is coming. It's here, and we have to just pray that God out of just sheer, unmitigated grace. My common prayer lately has been Lord, send a great awakening to America, greater than the original Greade awakening, because we were in more desperate need than ever ever before. And doctor Bihie, you've been addressing this idea of man human nature and its fourfold stake, and of following Augustine and following Thomas bots Boston and our own confession of faith. The sixteen eighty nine Confession addresses this most specifically in chapter nine when it speaks of the free will, and it speaks of man and his will as it is in his state of innocence, and his will and his state of sin, and his state of grace and a state of glorification, state of glory. And what it's doing is it's showing that the will of mankind, that faculty changes depending upon the state that the human nature is in. And you spoke this morning about man being justified and being brought into that state of grace. So thinking of man in a state of sin and how that affects all the faculties of a person and all the faculties of the human nature. Is there anything good that a man in a state of sin can do? What is the man in a state of say, capable of doing? Yeah, it's a great, a great question. So picture in your mind with me a whiteboard, and in the middle of the whiteboard a line from top to bottom, and then picture the left side of that whiteboard and put an X on the whiteboard about six feet away from the line, far from the line. Now, on the right side of the or the other side of the whiteboard, just put true good, and then on the left side put evil. So the natural man can never do, never cross that line, because he's never living for the glory of God. But six feet away, maybe he's robbing a bank, or he's murdering somebody, or he's doing something very, very evil, and God's common grace that Paul was just talking about is not restraining him. Of course that's evil. But what if he donates a million dollars to a hospital, I mean, unconverted people do that. What then is that a good deed. Well, it's good in the eyes of men, it can do a lot of good. But in God's eyes, you see, he sees the heart. So that little ax of giving a million dollars may be closer to the line, but it's still on the evil side because he's not doing it out of the right motivation for the glory of God. So the point is I was trying to say earlier this morning, is that whenever you don't do something out of the love for the glory of God and of true love for your neighbor, you are sinning, no matter how good it looks in the eyes of men. So that's why Spurgeon called this whole issue of debate about the free will. Free will yet bound. We're bound to the wrong side of the whiteboard. But it doesn't mean that you don't do some common good outwardly in the eyes of men. So think of it this way. An uncome averted person is never committing one act of genuine, spiritual good in the eyes of a holy, almighty God. So his will is bound, but doesn't mean he doesn't have choices. Sometimes we think free will means well, God's decrete, everything's you. You have no choice. You had a choice of whether to come here this morning or not. You have a choice when to eat lunch today. You have a choice to come to this conference, whether you're saved or unsaved. So we have all kinds of choices. We have a free will that way, but it's bound because we can never do good apart from the saving grace of God. Brother, when I'm explaining this to a lost person who brings up that question every once in a while, I say, it's not really a question of free will. Everyone's always talking about free will. It's not a question of free will. It's a question of goodwill. And that will to be good has to be tied to a nature that is good. And what is the thing? The thing does according to what it is. And another thing that I'd like to point out when someone talks about, well, I know this atheist over here who mows the elderly neighbor's yard, you know, charges her battery when it's cold. What about him? And for shock value, I'll say, oh, he will, for him is reserved the deepest place in hell. And they go, how can you say that? I said, because the only way he can do those things and not walk over to her the neighbor's house and murder her with an axe is the grace of God. He is boasting about things that he is doing, saying it's in his own power, when in fact it is the grace of the very God he's denying. He's taking credit for what God is doing, even in his life. And that's very important to understand. If it wasn't for the grace of God, we would all make Hitler look like a choir boy. Again. God restrains the evil of man so that he can carry out a work of redemption for his son. You know the other side of that too, I think is important that in Christ we can do good works that are acceptable to God, even though they are still tainted with sin. And so sometimes Christians can get the side of depravity and recognizing everything that a wicked person does, no matter how good, is not righteous and think, well, I can't do anything good either. Well, no, we're created for good works. And what makes our good works good and acceptable to God is that they're in accordance with His revelation and they're in Christ, and God accepts them from us in Christ. Yeah, it's a being can't act in contradiction to its own nature. You know, you have a sin nature. You have to act according to that. You've been saved by grace, you're in a state of grace. You can act according to that. Even God himself acts according to his own nature. So then that brings up a question in my own mind when we see people who are in a state of sin doing things that we would say, yes, that is a good thing, or that is a good discovery or they're saying a true thing. Do Christians have an obligated to an obligation to recognize that as good and praise it. Do we have an obligation to be indifferent towards it. Do we have an obligation to condemn it because it's not done out of the right motives? I think we have an obligation to praise those things. And I think it goes back to what Paul just said. You know, we recognize that that is the grace of God, right, and we want to acknowledge the grace of God in restraining sin, in leading even fallen men to do things like that. So, you know, I do think that we need to recognize that, praise God for that, help people understand that, while at the same time calling people to repentance and faith and calling them to. Understand the fact that, you know. However good that looks to us, it doesn't make it to the other side of the line. Another thing I think is very important is God is he doesn't just demonstrate grace. He is gracious. He doesn't just show kindness. He is kind and we are to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. One of the things that preachers want to make sure that they do is spend time with those who are not Christians so that they can remember to be gracious and to be kind and to pass over even a multitude of sins. It is the kindness of God that brings men to repentance. So if I'm you know, I have a waitress, let's say that's just fully tattered up and everything else and boisterous and everything, I'm going to engage her in a conversation as though she were my daughter. I'm going to love her. I'm going to talk to her. Another thing about evangelism is that, you know, I sometimes tell young preachers, think, where do you think you have the right to talk that way to someone? You need to earn that right, serve them, love them, bless them, pray for them, be gracious. And I think that's very, very important that when we're we have to talk about these realities. They're horrific realities, but never forget these are people. They were made by God and something of the Amako day still remains within them. And it's that kindness that we need to show. If I see someone playing a guitar wildly, I'm not going to walk up to them and say, your guitar playing is sinful and leads to lustful thoughts, even though it may I'm going to save you play that guitar well, and I'm going to talk to them as a human being, and I'm going to love them and be gracious to them. Very important, and those of us who believe in doctrine of radical depravity, we need to be very very careful that we do not see people just through that lens. That's why Hokema's book on the Image of God, that book really rebuked me because he talks about the beauty and the glory of this creation called man, and we need to hold to that and honor that. Yeah, Kelvin sheds a lot of light for me on this. He has this concept that he calls a complexial oppositorum, which is the complexity of opposites. So that's the world we live in. Also with our redeemed nature, even within ourselves, we have the old nature and the new nature. And Kelvin says when it comes to the ungodly as well, so you have this, you have this complexity where this world is like a graveyard, he set it's like a separachar. There's just so much sin. It's just overwhelming, and we're just grieved at the sin everywhere, sin in us, sin and the ungodly sin everywhere. It's a terrible world to live in because of sin, and it offends God. On the other side of the ledger, we as Christians. Wow, if we're a true Christian, I want to use my car for the glory of God. I want I want to love my wife for the glory of God. I want to love my children. So everything is really really positive in this world because I am living for Christ and for his sake. Now, what do you do with the unconverted person who's doing some of this outwork good? Well, just like just what was said here, I think is you see the complexity of opposites also in that individual, and even though you can't look into his heart and see the evil that still abides when they do something that seems to be good, you still respond to the way that they're acting and you do praise you do you are grateful, as voting he said last night, for the for the medical service. I'm sure that all the physicians working on you probably weren't saved, but you're very grateful for them, aren't you. So yeah, you do. You do praise, and you do express gratitude for things that are in God's common grace. Good. Can I add something in here, by the way, I'm just honored to be up here listening to this guy. I'm just listening in. Our church has gone through the Book of Ecclesiastes here recently, and it's interesting look at Ecclesiastes, and you know, the preachers points out, he says, hey, it's good to do work. Work is good. But then he turns right around and says, but under the sun it is vanity. You know. It's it's good to eat and drink, but under the sun it's vanity, you know. And basically the whole point of the book is under the sun, apart from God, everything, even the best things are vanity at best. Or even as scripture calls it, even the lamp of the wicked is sin. Even the good things that the wicked do are still sin. But the flip side is also true, and that is, you know, as a scripture says, whether you eat or drink, do all to the glory of God. The flip side is also true. And that is that even the smallest things that we do for the glory of God, in the fear of God, as acclesiasts, he says, those things are good. God sanctifies those things, and those are good even though they're still pathetic. You know, at our human strength, there's still our meager efforts. Yet God sanctifies those and uses it for good. So even if we're doing the smallest little thing, if we're doing it for the glory of God, it's good. But on the flip side, if we're doing even the best human, you know, good work, but we're not doing it for the glory of God, it's vanity and it's wicked. And then speaking of these smaller works or maybe a common works voted last night, you talked about the preacher and the person who doesn't preach, and how the preacher they don't do a job that's more important than the person who has maybe a more common job, because work is good regardless of the work, as long as you do it to the glory of God. Do you think that perhaps we have had a an errant view of this distinction between the sacred and the secular. Absolutely, yeah, we we most assuredly have. And it it's ironic, you know that that that we as especially we as as Baptists, you know, would would would would have that view, because the fact of the matter is, you know, we are not a sacramental or sacerdotal religion. Catholicism, for example, sacramental sasserdtal Sacramental graces dispensed through the sacraments sasser dodal. That grace is only dispensed through the sacraments when the right person is dispensing the grace through the sacraments. So that idea of you know, the the sacred versus the secular really comes into you know, stark relief in that kind of environment. But the fact that the matter is that if all that we do we're supposed to be doing to the glory of God, then there is a sense in which you cannot have such a divide, right, And that goes back to what I was saying last night. Because of that divide, there are people who have no contentment in ordinary things. And not only are we to have contentment in ordinary things, but we're to strive for God's glory in the ordinary things. We're to strive for truth, beauty, and goodness in the ordinary things, and to find great joy in the ordinary things. So yeah, it is wrong, But more than being wrong, it is incredibly unfortunate, because there's so much more that we're called to enjoy than we actually do. So do you think that the distinction is appropriate at all? Should there be any sort of distinction between sacred and secular? No, because Christ is Lord of all, right, I mean, if Christ is Lord of all, then I can't have that distinction. Everything is his, everything is meant to be his right. Everything exists by him and for him and through him. And because of that, those distinctions make no sense. Uh. I'm gonna try to nuance this a little bit. I hope you agree with me. Vote yeah. Coming together. One of the problems, one of the problems of Abraham Kuiper's theology. You know, Kuiper had that the side of piety, then he had the side of you know, everything must be sacred, everything must be redeemed for Christ. One of the problems that results from it is that Kuyper himself, this is no secret. If it was a secret, I wouldn't tell you. But Kuiper himself would stay home and write an article for his daily newspaper on Sunday because he said, well, I'm doing this for the glory of God and going to churches for the glory of God. If I'm putting gas, you know, many of the Kuyperians, if I'm putting gas in the car, doing for the glory of God. So the sacred and secular have no distinction at all. So there's nothing superior about being in the house of God and worshiping God, or nothing superior about the means of grace. I get alarmed also when I hear even some reform theologians say, since all of life is sacred. I actually heard this literally at a conference I was at. Since all of life is sacred, it doesn't really matter if you do your daily devotions, because well, you're doing all kinds of sacred things all day long. So I agree with the Prince of that all of life is sacred, but I think there's still a difference. It's the same thing in marriage. There are sacred moments in marriage, and there are ordinary moments in marriage, and I'm to love my wife all the time, but there are special things in marriage that stand above it. And I think we need to maintain the sacred secular distinction in that sense, while at the same time stressing you know, whatever we do, eat, or drink. Everything has to be to God's glory. But there certainly is a difference between putting gas in my car and thinking, well, this is a nice car, praise me to God and worshiping God in church as I receive the word of God. Yeah, and I think and for me, and you're right, that nuance I agree with. And that's why when asked the question, I immediately went to sacred versus secular in terms of us up here versus people who don't do what we do right. I mean that was Yeah, it's not that there's you know, nothing that has more significance. There are things that have more significance. But for me, when I hear that question, I'm thinking those of us who get. To do what we do. Right, we have sacred callings as opposed to those who serve the Lord in other ways, will never aspire to that, you know that, Like like we're. Again different because of what we do. We're privileged because of what we do, but what we do is in service, you know, to God's people. So I think we're agreeing on that. Yeah, let me interpret this as someone. Who doesn't read as many. Boss, so bring them together, brother. I believe they're both right, and I believe that both distinction. I believe what Vodie said broadly and the distinctions that brother Beaki made, they both fit together. There's I remember when I was in seminary forty years ago or however, and the professor came in and he said, just students, give me attributes of God and I'm going to write them on the board. So they had like thirty attributes up there, and I'm sitting there looking, I guess, kind of strange at it. The professor said, washer, what's wrong? And I said, well, we've said nothing. And he says, what do you mean We've said nothing. I've got all these attributes on the board. And I said, yes, you have all the attributes on the board. But everyone here in this room, there's thirty students, could have a different definition for each one of those attributes. So now we have to go back and define each one of those words biblically. We're everything is sacred. I believe that when Christ rose from the dead, he ripped the lid off the tomb and filled everything with light. Everything is sacred. But now I have to go to the word and figure out from the word what does that mean how does sacred work itself out? So then I go and I go, well, I look at marriage, I look at what he says about the Sabbath, I look at church, I look at everything, and then I go, Okay, everything is sacred. But now I've got to go into scripture and find where everything fits. And that's the job of each one of us, of the theologian of the exegy, is to find out, Okay, it's all sacred. I mean from Jeremiah, I would say the pots and pans in the kitchen are sacred, but where do they fit? Where does it all fit? Yeah? This is a great discussion and it's vitally important in our day right now because there is this massive divide between secularism and that which is sacred, and we are told, you know, keep your sacred stuff in the church. We have a secular state, and we ought to have a secular neutral state so we can have religious freedom all these things. And secularism is not neutral. I mean, secularism is religious as well, and if we're not thinking in that way, we can easily be played into Okay, well we're talking about sacred things, so we got to keep it within the context of the church or spirituality and relationships there. And we walk out our door, we say, okay, now we're in the secular worlds. We have to play by different rules, and no Christ is lord over it all. So in that sense, yes, everything is sacred, everything's under the lordship Christ. But to Joe's point and Paul, how you put it so well, we go to the Word to sort out how those things work proportionally and how we are to live under the lordship of Christ when we are entering what those would disagree with us call the secular arena, and we say, okay, but Christ is still lord here too, and so we're going to engage under the lordship of Christ and whatever thing it is that our hand's find to do. I think it's also important. I don't think we realize how much of Roman Catholicism marches through the evangelical world and even at times the reformed world, not only with regard to the secular and sacred, but also with the idea of piety, a monkish type of self beating piety. I think that we're not to prosper, and we're not to be in joy, and we're not to and I think this is just an example, a small example of how much we need to work as theologians and exegutes to find out what true piety is, what true living is, what true man is. And the work's not done. I love what Sam Waldron said a while back, because we have the confession and we stand on that confession, but the work's not done. There's still more exegetical work to do. There's still much more to discover of how do we live this Christian life? Joel, I think the Dutch tradition has so much to teach us on this. The Dutch Reformed tradition has much to teach us on this in the way that that's been applied through that tradition, far better than in my Baptist tradition. Voti, last night you threw a couple of bombs. You stated last night that the cultural mandate is still in effect today. And if I may play the devil's advocate, because I think this is a question in a lot of people's minds. You know, we have some good, faithful, godly others who are reformed and confessional and Covenental and anti woke and all the good stuff, right, who would say that the cultural mandate was tied to the covenant of works that God made with Adam in the garden. And as man is no longer able to fulfill that covenant now after the fall, so then also the cultural mandate is no longer able to be fulfilled by man, but can be fulfilled by Christ. As Christ fulfills the Covenant of works. How would you respond to that? I would respond to that by saying that, in a sense, yes, this is true. But if Christ is fulfilling that mandate and I am in Christ, then to that degree and to that extent, I am part of that mandate. And also that when we look at the the culmination of all things right, when we look at at at the Eschaton, then we see that from a in terms of the tellous, in terms of where that mandate is going, that that is still yet to be fulfilled. So I'm not just anticipating that, I'm not just watching that. I'm participating in that in the same way as under the old Covenant. No, not in the same way. But isn't that true of all of our experience and walk with Christ. The other thing is, from a very practical standpoint, as a Christian, if I am to be in said, if I am redeemed, and if all of my life is redeemed, then how do I think about the way that I exist as a husband, and as a father and as a fill in the blank, apart from tying it to this exercise of that mandate in my everyday life. So again, that's the way that I would and I would answer that. It seems like the even the New Testament admonitions, if you fulfill them, you're going to be doing the cultural mandate. You know, whatever your hand's find to do, due to the glory Lord, and do with all your strength all you might serve your master's well, all of those basic admonitions for just common Christianity, if we apply them, you're going to be doing what you talked about last night. This is important because it and voting. I talked about this because it really impacts missions. And you know, there's a lot of talk today about prejudice, racism, things like that, but let me explain to you some of the ways in which that actually does exist. So you go into a tribal area, let's say the kre Why fifteen years ago they were cannibals. They lived up in the trees to escape the demons and the witches, and they were at war constantly. So the idea a lot of times in modern missions is if you can just go in there and get them to understand something about Jesus died for you, pray and receive him that man, you've won that people, because obviously, I mean, they're so primitive they can't advance. Well, you know, if we go back and look at Europe, prior to the Gospel coming into Europe, we were running around naked, painting ourselves blue and clubbing each other to death. What changed? What was Where did John Owen and Bach come from? They came from the Gospel. And so when when my special my calling is are those people? And as I see America decline, why is it declining because its culture is no longer being influenced by the Gospel. I mean, just play it backwards. And also when I go into a culture and for example, we the core Whi people, even the translation most of them can't read, so you have to put it in in audio little recorders. So you see, I honestly believe that in two or three generations that John Owen can come out of there. I believe that the power of the Gospel. The power of the Gospel is if it was just getting us to heaven, that's still enough to preach about throughout all eternity. But one of the reasons why we pray for kings and all those in authority. Did you ever wonder why we do that? It's just not so that they don't put us in jail. It's so that I want to pray that they will be in such a way toward me and my family, that me and my family have the right to openly live as Christians before culture and have an influence that I can openly be employed and show my Christianity to my fellow workers so that they will be changed. This is about transformation. This is about a demonstration of the power of the Gospel, and you should never limit that ever, and that's what we've done. There should be far more taching. I mean, I called up last night. As soon as I got home back to my hotel, I called my wife and I said, get my kids to watch what body said. Think about this. Also, a man works at a job and he's a Christian, so he's going to try to do a good job. But if he understands, really understands that everything he does, God is watching, sees takes pleasure in it changes everything in his life. At a policeman one time, I was teaching on not as eloquently, but I was teaching on basically the same thing, and a policeman came up to me and he was weeping. He said, I thought my life was a waste. I sit there eight hours a day on the side of the road, watching people and then pulling them over for speeding. And you used an illustration about a policeman. How he he's a minister of Christ, and he's causing society to be shaped in a manner that is not chaos, so that the Gospel can go forward. He goes, I didn't realize my life as meaning. And so if you want to throw out cultural mandate, go ahead. But if you're in the New Testament, you'll find it again in this in distant different words. So and let me say though, that on the other side of that, I also understand and agree with people's trepidation about moving away from the Gospel and just focusing on cultural transformation, because that's not that's not what we're called to. And that's why this connection is important. In that middle tree, right, the connection is important in the person and work of Christ, our Redeemed and that picture in romans At of even creation groaning right, because when the when the when the fall happens. You know, Adam is and I read this last night. You know Adam is not just told. You know you got a spiritual problem between me and you. He's told because of what you did. You got a problem with the land. You got a problem with the earth. You know, you got a problem with creation. It's connected to what I you know, called and called you to do, created you to do, told you to do. That's impacted. And so because that's impacted, I can't I can't disconnect that from this overall comprehensive, redemptive work that God is doing. And I'm also often reminded of the fact that, you know, somebody is going to be building culture. Either they're going to be. People who love God or they're gonna be people who hate God. We have a classical school at our church, and I tell my students that you will inherit the earth because you are receiving a gospel spawd culture and those in our culture who are attempting to build culture. Cultureman has done a great job in showing this, they're actually building anti culture, evolving into chaos. And so Christians, we have a wonderful responsibility and we have a wonderful opportunity right now to serve our neighbor in that way. I want to stretch this then into maybe some just to get some clarity into some eschatological dimensions. So you know, we look at the cultural mandates basically Adam is to take the garden of Eden and expand it until it covers all of God's creation and to build on that and to glorify God and building. So then as we see ourselves attempting to fulfill the cultural mandates, how do we view that in terms of eschatology? Are we attempting then to try to bring in the new heavens and New Earth in our every efforts culturally in our building or is that something that we're just waiting for God to bring in himself. How does how do our efforts and the cultural mandate tie into aschatology? For me, I would say think about it the same way that we think about it spiritually. Right, we're preaching the Gospel and we want, you know, men to be saved. Are we doing that because we want to usher in the Escaton by getting everybody saved that's supposed to be. It's the same question and our answer is the same. We're doing this because this is what we're called to do. This is the role that we're called to play as God works out his redemptive purposes. Right. I don't know. I don't know how or or you know why the Lord is using me in whatever area that he's using me. But I know that I have a role to play and a duty to fulfill. What all it looks like, what the result of it will all be. Yeah, that's not my department, you know. My department is just faithfulness in this little corner that I've been given to cultivate. There's a really important principle of hermoneutics here, And the reason why church history is so important when we're doing hermoneutics is that if I look at a certain doctrine and godly men down through the ages they've all believed this firmly and seen it as the very center of the Christian faith, and they're all in agreement, then my departure from that is dangerous. So history, that's why you study church history. So when we come to the Escaton, I know in history and today men who would disagree on nuances of how that's going to work itself out. Now we need to study eschatology. But I'm probably it would not be wise to build my ethic on a certain view of eschatology, because I'm violating that principle about the hermeneutic down through the ages of the Church. And it's like Vodie said, I just build it on this, you know again, as a simple man, I just build it on the commands. And the commands are there for every aspect of my life, whether it be finances, or my wife, or my children, or even how I treat animals. The commands are there, and so you don't have to be this tremendous theologian with a perfect system. You just have to be a person who reads the commands and obeys them. But in the context of the gospel work. Of Christ, Amen, and I would say, just adding to that, and believes the promises and hopes and the promises and lives with the certainty that those promises are going to be fulfilled. I wish I could detail exactly how, and with great confidence. I don't good men have disagreed on that, But I look forward to the day when the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen, and I want to live with that hope and anticipation until that day doing my job. Well, if it doesn't happen in my lifetime or the way I think it's gonna happen, I know it's gonna happen, and so I can labor optimistically. You're gonna win the game absolutely if we work, and we work, and we work, Yeah. This is gonna happen. This is gonna be good. This is going to happen. Well, when you when you read the Bible about the end times, you get you really get two sets of texts, don't you. One is basically saying the godly will become more godly, and the other is basic and there's hope, and there's yeah knowlg fill the earth of the Lord, and the other is saying, well, I find faith on the earth, so the ungodly are going to be more ungodly. It would be like the days of Noah. So you get this. The antithesis is getting sharper and sharper, and we're living we're living in a really sharp antithesis in America today and all over the world. So I want to be on the side of the godly becoming more godly. So I want to promote piety. I want to promote godliness. And by the way Calvin, Calvin's defined piety so well, he said that the Old Testament word for piety is the fear of God. The New Testament word for piety is godliness. And both of them have this idea of in quorum deo. You have this tremendous reverence for God in relationship to all that you do. And we want to be on the side of the godly that promote this awareness of God. This in quorum Deo's in and through Christ. And if we can just help in some way by God's grace to make the godly more godly, and to be used as a means by the Holy Spirit to have the ungodly cross the line to the godly. While even it happens to one, my whole life is worthwhile. So we strive to say, Lord, put me in that godly stream and use me and make me fruitful to Thy glory, so I may appear before THEE with the blood passport saved us a poor sinner in Christ. But all what a day it will be in heaven to hear that one and that one and that one God used me for to help them come into that godly stream. Bradley, you had the perhaps unenviable task of exploring mankind and the depths of depravity and the issue of abortion yesterday and a wonderful talk, just excellent. One thing that you said at the beginning of your talk that I've been thinking about out since you said it, as you said that the pro abortionists in the United States they're united around the same ideals. They want abortion up to the moment of birth wherever they can get it, however they can get it. Those who are anti abortion are not united, and you detailed some of the ways in which they're not united on the pro life side, on the abolitionist side, or whatever label. That you use. What are some ways that you would suggest that we can work towards unity between those who are anti abortion. We have to come back to God's word. We have to unite around God's word. You know, the enemies of God take counsel together, and they conspire together, and they unite together against them that the friends of God need to conspire together and unite together around God's word. We have to keep coming back to that. You know, a lot of the pro life movement has not been built upon the word of God. It's been built upon worldly wisdom, you know, man's strategies. Let's see, Okay, well we. Want to get here, but we can't say this because that's unpopular. Maybe biblical, but it's unpopular. So we got to let's say this, and let's take this little step instead of saying, this is what God demands, regardless of whether it's popular or unpopular. That's not for me. This is what God demands. And let's let others compromise, right. Let let the politicians say, Okay, well we'll give you this, well, yeah, but this is what God demands. Okay, well we'll give you a little bit more. Yeah, but this is what God still demands. You know, we have to be willing to bring God's word again, not just in our pulpits and not just in our pews, but into our state houses and into our politics. You know, one time I was in our state legislature and I was talking to one of our politicians there, and we had a one pager doc that explained our bill to abolish abortion, and he said to me, he said, yeah, I was looking this over and hey, I'm a Christian. I love what you're doing. But people are laughing at you because we had scripture in our document explaining why they should abolish abortion and vindicate the image of God by protecting it by the law. He said, people are laughing at you, And I just felt so blessed at that moment. Blessed are they when they scorn you? And and you know, again, bring God's word, like we talked about in our brief to the U Supreme Court in the Dobs case. Again, our number one authority is the Holy Bible. We can't drop our swords when we go into battle with the culture. We have the most powerful weapon, the only one that has spiritual significance that cuts and divides the hearts of men. We can't put that aside when we're talking with the culture, and we can't put that aside when we're talking with one another as well. And that's where we find unity, and that's where we need to unite is around God's word. Yeah, Bradley, would you mind telling people how they can read that brief? I was so blessed. I don't know they've ever been blessed by reading any kind of brief before legal briefs, but I was blessed by the out of the gate. Here are our authorities, because all those legal briefs start with, you know, here's the basis on which we're going to make our argument, and it's the word of God. And how can people find that online to read it? Yeah, well they can find it on the US Supreme Court website looking up the Dobs case, and that's seen the brief from the Foundation to a Boss Abortion and there were twenty other organizations and then twenty state legislators assigned on to that as well. Or you can go to our website at FAA dot life and find the brief there. And you know, it's just again, I appreciate what you said about, you know, everything sacred. As a lawyer, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. But you know, even even the briefs that we write, even the law, even our politics, we need to be bringing everything into the into the subjection of God. And we're grateful that Spring Court did overturn road. However, in some ways it has just unleashed what was already there, right, and that is that abortion was not a problem that the Spring Court had caused. The Spring Court, the Federal government wasn't forcing people to get abortions, right. It's it's the hearts of man that are desperately wicked. You know, when when you said that that he told you, you know, these people are laughing at you. In the pre conference, I don't know. I think it was in the Q and A. I brought up the fact that in the colonial era, one of the most popular books was Blackstone's Commentary on the Laws of England, and it has scripture references everywhere. And and so when you said that, I'm thinking, Wow, how far we've fallen. You know, we we we went from this book that lay at the foundation of our jurisprudence, that has scriptural references all over it, to now people who stand on the shoulders of those individuals who laugh at somebody who would who would do that? And and and uh, yeah, praise God that you know that is being done again. And you know, may may or tribe in Greece. I remember for even in law school, you know, even in law school, I remember sitting in property class and contrast class and things like that, and just thinking this is from scripture. I mean, so much of our law is built upon God's word. And then to see how now, even though we're teaching the same thing, even though we're enjoying the same benefits of being built upon those things, yet we turn around with bit upon the foundation that all these wonderful things are based upon. You know, it takes me back to the discussion between the secular and the sacred, that distinction there, you know, theology one on one that God reveals himself in two ways, in general revelation in special revelation, and we for some reason to think that we can only use special revelation when it comes to certain things, and we can only use general revelation when it comes to certain things. We can't use special revelation when it comes to law and political theory, we can't use general revelation when it comes to how we worship and all th things. If you sit in a cushion chair in your worship services, you're using general revelation. Right. So we need to recognize that all truth is God's truth, and we need to utilize it wherever we can. But also in politics, also in law, also in fighting against abortion. We need to use God's truth, particularly when it comes out of the Word of God. So I think a lot of pastors and ministry leaders who are here today perhaps are dissatisfied with the pro life life movement or with maybe particular organizations that they've been involved with in the past. What are some organizations, Bradley that you would point them to? And then I think what would be most helpful is what is it that pastors and Christian leaders can do even in their own localities to fight against abortion and to seek the abolition of abortion. Well as far as organizations, I mean you heard yesterday from Rescue Those one of the sponsors here. They have a booth out in the vendor hall and they all the materials free. So go out there and just rob them blind all their material They have a lot of great stuff. So I encourage you to go out there and check them out. And then of course you can follow our organization FAA dot Life Foundation Abolish Abortion. You know, I think I think the most important thing. We were actually talking about this last night at dinner, okay, okay, and that is that sometimes we can get things out of balance. You know, we can say, well this ministry is where we need to be putting one hundred percent of our time. And if you're not doing that, then you're. Not a Christian or you're not act you know, we need to be preaching the whole council of God. But this is also one of I mean, if we're loving our neighbors as ourselves, and we have neighbors who are daily by the hundreds and yearly by the hundreds of thousands being carried to the slaughter, this is certainly certain thing that every one of us should be caring about, every one of us should be praying about. Not everyone's going to have the same ministry or the same opportunities or devoting the same time, And there's still so many other areas that the church needs to be focused on, but this is something that I think, I think we all can be doing something and pastors need to be making it clear not only for how we abolish abortion, but I think a lot of people take it for granted that No, there's probably people in your pewes right now your church who have had abortion and maybe still have guilt over that that needs to be dealt with, or they're considering abortion and they need to hear what God's word says on that with compassion, but without varnishing the truth. I've had the privilege of preaching at a number of you know, pro life ministries and crisis pregnancy centers around the country over the years, and one of the things that shocked me the first time I heard it. It shocked me so much that I kept asking the question when I would go to other Christis pregnancy centers, and that was that among the women who come in considering abortion, that anywhere from fifty to seventy five percent of them are church goers. I remember the first time I heard that, I was like, wait, what Yeah, And so, you know, I'm in another you know, crisis pregnancy center in another state, and I go, hey, how many of the women who come in here who are worshiped mind, did you know, identify themselves as church always somewhere you know, fifty to seventy of them, And it was it was shocking to me, but it brought that same truth to mind that you just you know, said that that we're naive if we think that there aren't people sitting in our pews who find themselves in this situation. There there are, and we need to be aware of that and and press into that and engage there. Let me say to you, just underscore what you said in your talk yesterday, Bradley, that, man, it's the most cruel thing in the world to keep someone who has committed sin from coming face to face with the reality that they've committed sin, because there is a savior for sinners, and. There's an antidote. And if someone can be convinced that, well, you know, I'm a victim, I'm not the perpetrator. I haven't done anything wrong. They've just cut themselves off from the grace of God, because the grace of God is in Christ for sinners. And so as pastors, I've seen this happen where. You can lead someone to come to grips, face to face with what they have done. And it's shattering and it's horrific for that moment of revelation to come, but it is the entry way into the Gospel. And so, brothers and sisters, we don't serve people well whenever we do anything to make light of their sin. We have to have such confidence in Christ that we can lead people to see sin for what it is and then hold Christ to them and press him to them so that they really can find forgiveness, they really can find redemption in Christ. One final question, particularly for you Bradley, but for all of you men. You know, when it comes to fighting the sin of abortion in our own lands, you know. Is there. Is there a way that Christians can rejoice in an incremental approach? Is there any room for any sort of incrementalism? Or should we always be dissatisfied when there are you know, successes on that front. I mean, in one sense, everything is incremental, right, My sanctifications is incremental. Our the kingdom coming, God's will be done and is incremental. But God's demands, God's law, his standards are clear, and that's what we're to lift up. Like when it comes to our sanctification. We don't treat although we may treated as incremental, we don't proclaim it as incremental. We don't say, okay, well, just I know you're sending in this area, but just you know, just commit adultery a little less right, No, it's thou shalt not commit adultery. And although the sanctification may come incrementally or may become oh well I'm not doing it physically, well I'm still doing it mentally or Okay, well now I'm dealing with that, or now I'm discovering, Oh, here's other ways that I'm doing that, and God brings a sanctification. Nevertheless, the standard is the same, and that's the standard has to be what we're proclaiming to the culture, or we're proclaiming and demanding of our our representatives, who are God's ministers of justice, as Romans thirteen says, they are to administer justice with our partiality, and so we're to call them to that. Now, it may happen incrementally in. That Okay, it's okay, this is this jurisdiction, or maybe it's this state, or maybe it's this area, and we start seeing those kind of victories, and I think absolutely we can when when we see it's happening here, celebrated, when they're when they're meeting God's standard, when they're seeking God's standard. We celebrate that. What we don't celebrate is sin. You know, an impartial decree is still an iniquitous decree. I'm sorry, A partial decree, and by partial, I don't mean pafway, I mean a partial in the sense that it shows partiality. Right, if we're still showing partiality to the way. If we're still justifying the wicked and condemning the innocent in what we pass, then that's not something to celebrate. Now, is could God use that right what others mean for evil? Does he use for good? Absolutely? And that's that God uses things what others mean for evil for good all the time incrementally. But that's what we don't celebrate the fact that Joseph's brothers threw him into a pit or sold him into slavery. Those things were still sin. But is God using it yet? So I think whenever it comes to you know, if we pass a twenty week ban on abortion, or if we've past a heartbeat ban on abortion, those are incremental, but at the same time, they're still showing partiality. We're still saying, you know, okay, well, you know, this life gets a different justice than this life. This gout life gets different protection than this life. And oh and all of these it's still have much lower penalty, and mothers are still have carte blanche, you know, right to commit this. That's still an iniquitous degree that's still falls short of God's standard, And I don't think that that's something to celebrate. But is it something that God's using. Yes, I think it certainly can be, but that's not something we celebrate unless it's truly meeting his standard. Then well, thank you gentlemen for this panel discussion. Give them a hand.