2022 Founders PreConference

Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. He holds an honorary degree from the Baptist from Southern California Seminary, and he has additional postgraduate studies at Oxford. That's a mouthful, that's a lot to say. So we're grateful to have doctor Bakham with us. He and his wife, Bridgett, have been married since nineteen eighty nine and together they have nine children. But he's also a weightlifter. He's also Alien ju suit champion. Is that correct? Please come on up here to doctor Backham. I like, hey, well, good evening. My assignment tonight is to address the issue of our calling to community, and I think this is a very important topic for us to discuss. But it's also a very challenging topic for us to discuss because I believe we have a faulty understanding of what community is, and I believe we have, as a result of that, a very weak commitment to community as believers. Between this idea of our general calling and our calling and this calling to community. In the London Baptist Confession of Faith of sixteen eighty nine, Chapter twenty six and paragraph six, we find the members of these churches this is a chapter on the church. The member of these churches are saints by calling, visibly, manifesting and evidencing in and by their profession, and walk their obedience unto that, and do willingly consent to walk together according to the appointment of Christ, giving up themselves to the Lord and to one another by the will of God, in professed subjection to the ordinances of the Gospel. So one of the clear marks of us being called in Christ is us being called to one another. That is one of the hallmarks of being genuinely and authentically called in Christ. And yet there are many who, on the one hand, claim to love Jesus but not love his bride. You can't say amen, y'all to say out there are so many who proclaim that Christ is there all in all, nothing to do with his bride. Imagine if you will, this conversation. I meet a brother and we hit it off, and the brother says, you know, Vodie, I just I've come to just love you as a as a brother. Just you. You're my brother. I appreciate you, I love you. I just that's awesome. I'm just and I want you to know that I'm committed to our relationship. I'm committed to our fellowship. I'm committed to us walking as brothers. You just need to know I can't stand your wife. Well, as we say down in Texas, that dog won't hunt. But that's precisely the way many treat the Lord Jesus Christ. I love you, but I want nothing to do with your bride. And it just doesn't work that way, especially when you understand that the bride the church is actually the body of Christ. So now I'll go you one better, Jesus, I love you, just not your body. We are called to community. There are a number of passages that allude to this one time alluded to earlier. One Peter Chapter two, verses nine and ten. You are a chosen race of royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession. That you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people. Once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. We are a people, we are a nation, we are a priesthood, and we're called to live as such. Hebrews ten twenty three to twenty five. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. Amen. He goes on, how do we you know? And oftentimes we'll say, Okay, I get that. I'm gonna hold fast to my confession. I want to hold fast to my profession of faith. I'm gonna hold fast to Jesus, and I'm gonna hold fast to Jesus without word wavering, because he who promises faithful. But keep reading, and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, and that not just since COVID, but encourage one another and all the more as you see the day drawing near. That's been interesting to me too, because I know some folks who who haven't been committed churchmen for a long time. Right, they do church on the couch, you know, they they do. They do YouTube church, been doing YouTube church for years. And now they're sitting and throwing rocks and complaining and condemning churches who haven't been meeting because COVID. One of those things is problematic. Amen. I'm all for saying that churches ought to be meeting, ought to be gathering. Be kind of odd if I wasn't seeince how we're here. Amen. But it's not just because of what's happening right now with COVID that we need to be standing up and being committed together. Just stand up and be committed to gathering, because that's who we are. And it's ironic that many people folded during COVID because we didn't have a firm grasp and commitment on this idea of our calling to community before COVID. And so it was okay. Then this passages to twelve that again elaborate on this idea of us being a body and a community and belonging to one another. And we can debate all day about the nature and the continuation or cessation of these gifts, But what we will not debate is the purpose of these gifts. That's not lept for debate. One Corinthians twelve twelve. For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the memory members of the body, though many are one body, so it is with Christ. And then in Romans twelve, for as in one body we have many versts the same function, so we, though many are one body in Christ, individual members one of another. We belong to each other. We are called to community, But when we use the word community, we often have in mind an idealized version of the word. We think community means being part of a group that thinks exactly like we do, that never lets us down, that meets all our needs. But what we don't think of is the cost of community, the risk, the pain, the disappointment, the betrayal, the heartache. So consequently, our tendency to run from community to community, complaining about and condemning the reality while we continue to seek the unattainable dream been. Of course, as has also been alluded to, there's the problem of fake, false online community. There we find celebrity masters whose messages are polished and edited and just happen to always be on topics that we wish our local pastor would preach on. Online brothers and sisters whose online personas are more perfected than anyone in our real circles, congregations whose online presence is exactly what we're looking for, and none of the things and echo chambers where we find others sharing our same longings. But that's not community, and worse than that, not being community, it often ends up being the source of our dissatisfaction is to which we belong. And so if you have your Bibles with you, open them to Second Timothy chapter four, and I want us to look at the costly call to community, because it is costly. Second Timothy Chapter twelve, beginning four. Second Timothy Chapter four, beginning at verse nine, I'm talking about Romans twelve and one Corinthians twelve, and so I've added chapters to two Timothy. Continue the chapter four, beginning in verse nine, talking about community. I appreciate the members of the community who just said for you, just blessed me, you helped me. I was at church one time and we had gone back and forth from preaching in Exodus for several months and preaching in Romans for several months instead of Moses, I kept saying Paul. And it wasn't until after the sermon was over that somebody came up and said, you realized like the whole message you were like, brother, you should have stood up and said something right and saying, you know, this brother is supposed to be a theologian. He didn't even know that it was Moses and not Paul who wrote next to this, right, It's like can do with the chapter four? We're getting verse nine and I love this. You know, I know we're not supposed to have favorite books in the Bible. It's like it's like having a favorite child. Right, if you do, don't tell, but this is this is about my favorite book in the Bible for a number of reasons. But and just just listen to the honesty in this text. Part of the reasons I love two Timothy is just in terms of apologetics, in terms of people who doubt the authenticity of the Bible or question the authenticity of the Bible. I love to bring him to books like this where it's just obvious that this is not someone who's trying to impress or deceive, or this is incredibly personal. Do your best to come to me soon, for Demas and love with this present world has deserted me and gone to Thessalonika. Crescence has gone to Galatia, tied us to Dalmatia. Luke alone is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he's very useful to me. I've sent to Ephesus. When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Karpus at Troas also the books and above all the parchments. Alexander the coppersmith did me great harm. The Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Of him yourself strongly opposed our message. At my first defense. No one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. May it not be charged against them. But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion's mouth. The Lord will rescue me from evy, bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever. Amen. Greet Prisca and Aquila and the household of Onocypherus. Erastus remained at Corinth, and I left Trophemus, who was ill at Melitus. Do your best to come before winter. Ubulus sends greetings to you, so do Pudens and Linus and Claudia and all the brothers. The Lord be with your spirit grace be you amen. The costly call to community. There is much here to be said, but we can't miss this idea of the cost of community. We see this first in that community is costly because it requires intimacy, and intimacy is costly. Listen to the words here, do your best to come to me soon. This is part of the intimate language characterizes the letters. Timothy, hurry up and come. Then, he says, when you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books and above all the parchments. Greet Prisca and Aquila we see in verse nineteen, and the household of Vonusypherus Erastus remained at Corinth. I left Trophemus, who was ill at Militias. Do your best to come before winter you will to sends greetings to you, as do Pudens and Linus and Claudia and all the brothers. There is intimacy here. This is not a cold, deligious official to his constituents. This is an intimate treatise from one man to people whom he loves dearly and with whom he has shared his life. We see this in the opening of the letter, after he identifies himself as Paul an apostle in verse one. Then in verse two, look at what happened in the beginning of verse two to my beloved child Grace mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. I thank God, whom I serve as did my ancestors, with a clear conscience. As I remember you constantly in my prayers night and day. I remember your tears. I longed to see you that I may be filled with joy. I'm reminded of your sincere faith, a faith that dwelt first in your grandmother Lors and your mother Eunus, and now I am sure dwells in yours well. For this reason, I remind you to fan and deflame the gift of God which is in you through the laying on of my hands. For God gave us a spirit not of fear, but of power and love and self control. There's intimacy here. Paul loves Timothy. Paul knows Timothy. Timothy. He shares shared life with Timothy. He shared tears with Timothy. This is what Jesus meant when he prayed in John seventeen, verse eleven. I'm no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you, Holy Father. Keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one even as we are. Intimacy is costly. Real community is costly because it calls us to intimacy, and intimacy is not easy. It makes us vulnerable. But real community is rooted in intimacy. You don't create intimacy overnight. It takes time. You don't throw away intimacy over trivial matters. You fight for it because it matters. And you don't find intimacy online. I know, I know what a blessing it can be to find things online that can just shower you with truth, feed your soul. Amen, hallelujah, Praise the Lord for the time in which we live where we have access to such things. But Saints, be careful because that's not intimacy. I get dozens of emails and messages every day from people who are looking. Now, here's something that's completely inappropriate for me to share with somebody that I don't know. I'm thousands of miles away from you. Will you mentor me? You don't know me from Adam's house cat, But here's what's happening in my marriage. Can you counsel me? Here's what Here's a Passenger scripture that I find confounding. Can you explain it? All of this is born out of this false sense of intimacy. Because you can make contact with someone, that doesn't mean that you have a relationship with them. That's not intimacy. And my response is usually something like, talk to your pastor, well, I can't we why is he your pastor? Don't fall into this trap. Don't trade that which God has given, this beautiful gift of intimate relationship with brothers and sisters who are actually in your life, with the false hopes of intimacy with someone thousands of miles away. Because that's not the same thing, and it's poisoning us and it's causing us to be dissatisfied with what we have. How do I know this? I know this because I've experienced it for the last six and a half years we have been in Zambia. But before that, it was a church plant in Houston, across town, across the state, or even across the whole country because they listen to messages online and we just couldn't find anybody near us. Teachers like you believe the things that you believe, it's willing to stand up in the areas that you're willing to stand up and to. People came to our church and then left. Why. Well, I mean, just give you a few examples. One family moved across country to come to our church because of my willingness to take firm stands on issues. And then they came to our church and realized that we preached systematic exposition and would spend months at a time not preaching on the issue of the day, but preaching through Extodus. Ah, this is not what we expected. One family moved across the state, came to our church, went through our membership class, and before they finished the membership class, they were leaving why because they found out we were Calvinists, to which I responded, what were you listening to? Did you even read the website? Or they come to the church and we actually start getting involved in their lives and find out that they're divisive and disgruntled all the time, and we address it and then they're gone. It's easy to get caught of finding snippets from people online, comparing that to what you have, and convincing yourself that the ideal will exists and it's right there. I assure you it's not. Nobody is perfect, certainly not me, ask my wife. God has called us to genuine, intimate relationships, and they are costly. And one of the reasons that they are so costly is because they require risk as imperfect people enter into intimate relationships with other imperfect people. Look at verses ten through twelve. For Demus, in love with this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonaika Crescence has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia. Luke alone is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, for he is very useful to me. From ministry Tchikus I sent to Ephesus. Then look at verse fourteen. Alexander the Copper Smith did me great harm. It probably says something about me, But this is arguably my favorite book, and that's arguably my favorite line. Alexander the Copper Smith did megret Not just Alexander, Alexander the Copper Smith, dude who shot down there on Main Street, you know the one I'm talking about him. The Lord will repay him according to his deeds. Beware of him yourself, for he strongly opposed our message. At my first defense, no one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. May it not be charged against them. Intimacy brings great risk. Real community brings great risk community to communities because we were not willing to accept these risks, and somehow we believe that these risks are not part of God's plan, that if it's real, authentic biblical community, that you won't experience these things. Listen, Paul names fifth ten people here. Four of them Demus, Crescens, Titus, and Tichikus had departed for one some of them we know not for good reasons. Demus, in love with the present world, has departed. That's a problem. That's painful, that hurts. That hurts when you invest in someone, when you have an intimate relationship, when you pour your life into someone, and then they depart, not just on bad terms, but on good terms. Josh, we planted that church in Houston, and then after nine years, having planted that church in Houston, we moved to Africa. That hurt. That hurt us, and it hurt people whom we left. It wasn't sinful, and it still hurt. Four other people mark Erastus, Corpas, Trophemus. They had been left along the way by Paul. Some people left him, some people he left, and it hurts. One had betrayed and opposed it Alexander, the copper smith, you know, the woman to shop down there on Main Street. And that's just the people that he named. There's also what he says at my first defense, No one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. And it's not just there. Chapter one, verse fifteen. You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are for jealous and homogenes. I love this again he names names. There were a number of people who were who are very miffed with me because in fault lines I named names. And apparently they believe this not Christian to name names. I just send him these verses where Paul does precisely that, and he does it without any malice. Look at what he says at my first defense, No one came to stand by me, but all deserted me. May it not be charged against them? I name their names, tell you what they did did, But I don't hate them. Pray they'll find forgiveness. But it hurts, But it hurts. Chapter four, verse three and four. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears, they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions and will turn away from listening to the truth and will wander off into myths. And yet Paul did not run away from the cost of community. He didn't run away from the intimacy. He didn't run away from the risk. So many of us know of people who've done they've run away. Some of us are people who've done precisely that we've run away. And listen, I'm not saying that there is never a time to leave. Nor is the text saying that sometimes Paul sent people away. Sometimes Paul went away from people. Amen. But the point is that there was a commitment to community and to the costly idea of community, regardless of the disappointment and the pain and the heartache. But for so many what happens is we say, Okay, I'll try this, and then we get there and it hurts, and then we leave and we say, I'm not going to do that community thing anymore. Jesus, I love, but not the community that disappoints me and hurts me. Wrong answer, wrong answer. We embrace it because it's who we are. We belong to Christ and we belong to one another, and so we take the risk. Listen, Saints arguably the most painful personal experiences in my entire life have been at the hands of Christians, often Christians, Christians whom I've taught and pastored and mentored and married, Christians with whom I've walked with through the darkest days of their lives, who then turn around and insert the knife right between the shoulder blades. And what do you do? You weep and mourn and turn to the next one. What other alternative do we have to run away and hide? But why is this the case? Why is it so? Why is it so painful at times and disappointing at times? Because it was never meant to be sufficient. I was never meant to get everything that I need from you, and you were never meant to get everything you need from me. We will always disappoint each other. That's why it's good that this was never meant to be sufficient Verses seventeen and eighteen. But the Lord stood by me and strengthened me, so that through me the message might be fully proclaimed and all the gentiles might hear it. So I was rescued from the lion's mouth. The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory forever and ever. Amen. If I could just put this succinctly, here's what Paul's saying to Timothy. Sheep bite, but the shepherd good. So keep loving the sheep and keep looking to the shepherd. Philippians Chapter one, verses eighteen to twenty four really sort of puts a finer point on this. Yes, and I will rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help with the spirit of Jesus Christ, this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that will full, that will with full courage. Now as always, Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For me to live as Christ to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose, I cannot tell. I am heart pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary. On your account, who you who abandoned me when I needed you? You who did me much harm or another. This is the same guy. This is the same guy who's telling Timothy about all these awful and hurtful things that happened because he took the risk of see because of the call to community. This is the same guy. The same guy says, I'm torn between the two because on the one hand, I know that it's better for me to go and be with the shepherd, But on the other hand, I know that the sheep who bite benefit from him being here. Do not embrace the false, idealized picture of a perfect community out there somewhere, unless it's the one at the end of the age, Amen, Because if you embrace that idea, you will continue to run from community to community every time there's pain or heartache or disappointment, and eventually you'll stop running and just give up on community altogether and just sit in your home and watch YouTube and send emails to the guys whom you like listening to, hoping that they will somehow be the replacement for the community that you've been running from. And that's not who we're called to be. We're called to be believer, to embrace the cost of community because it's who we are. We belong to churst to one another, and even when there's friction and we butt heads, even when there's confrontation, even when there's abandonment and betrayal, we recognize that our hope is not in one another, but our hope, which is why we can continue to endure hardship and pain and disappointment and not let it dissuade us from pursuing communion with Christ and communion with one another, because it's who we are and it's worth it. Let's prays God and Father, our great Triune God, who is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, who is perfect community, who is perfect communion, and who calls us to perfect communion with you, and as a result of that, calls us to communion with one another. God, we thank you and praise you for your goodness and mercancity and kindness toward us. We praise you that you call up grant by your grace that we might be mindful as we embrace the risk of intimacy within biblical community. We pray this in Christ's name and for his sake. Amen. Thank you body. Well, We're gonna take a fifteen minute break before our panel discussion. Doctors Bachhaman asked, will be joined by Travis Allen for that panel discussion, So fifth better seat, because these people aren't going anywhere, so might asll just stick with the seats you got. There are restrooms out the door you came in to the left, and then also some restrooms out here to the right as well, So we'll call you back in in fifteen minutes. Su su mhm h m. Yeah, he's in his own Hello, it's time for us to start, evidently, because my microphone's on. Tom's trying to take my job. If you guys can all come on in and take your seats, that'd be greatly appreciated. As I said, Vote and Tom are being joined tonight for this panel by pastor Travis Allen. Travis was raised in Golden, Colorado, and he joined the military in nineteen eighty eight, where God regenerated him to new life and faith in Christ. In nineteen ninety, what incidentally, was the year I was born. It's a good year. He met and married his wife, Melinda in nineteen ninety three, and God has given them five wonderful children. Travis was educated for pastoral ministry at the College at Southeastern and the Master's Seminary and he worked there with John MacArthur at Grace to You, and he accepted a pastor position at Grace Church in Greeley, Colorado, back in twenty fourteen and that is where he currently serves. He's also a board member of Founders Ministries and also formerly a Navy seal. So we have a Navy CeAl and we have a Brazilian jiu jitsu champee. Feel safe. But we all know, we all know that Tom is the most dangerous person on this stage. I'll let you guys take it away. Oh how are we doing tonight? Was that? Is that good? I so much enjoyed both of those presentations. Both of those sermons really really good. But you did notice that we're talking about two of vocation or calling. Vote was focused on the local church, our calling into the local churches Christians. Tom broadened it out to think more about the Christians calling and society. We need to bring those two together down. So I just want to pitch a question, what is primary? If we think about calling, what's primary? And why? Like which sermon of yours is better most? If we got to listen to one, They are two sides of the same coin, right, I mean we are equipped in that community, right and and encouraged in that community so that we can be effective outside. It's it's not an either or, it's a both and and uh, you know, sometimes our and for some of us, our priority will be the one or the other. Right, If you're serving in pastoral ministry and that's where your calling is, then you you you really are giving more of your life and yourself, you know, to that area or calling, whereas someone you know else may be giving more of their life and gifts to that outside calling. But in the end it all works together. Yeah, I would agree with that. It's the call of Christ to be part of the body of Christ. And as you mentioned, you can't have Christ fully and reject his body, reject his pride. So that's where we grow, that's where we learn, that's where we are equipped, and we do that together. We do life together. So it's we assemble. The church is the assembly, but we're not assembled twenty four to seven, and we have our lives that have various spheres of opportunity to impact our callings individually. But it's that called community that enables us to continue on being what God has called us to do. And the opportunity has given us individually. Yeah, you see that pattern in Ephesians Ephesians four to six, where you see Paul teaching about the local church and Ephesians chapter four, and then there's the effect of the spirit's filling and the word of Christ dwelling, and it's richly going into the family in the home and then outside into the workplace underneath authority out there. So you see that connection all the way through two sides of the same coin. Indeed, why is it so vital then that a Christian uh, even if he is spending a lot of time outside the home and a vocational uh, you know, something outside the home of vocation. I mean, you've got people who work in various manufacturing or any kind of industry. Why is it vital that he must be in that local church developing that intimacy for the good of his calling. And you know, we need and have to have the ordinary means of grace, right, I mean that that work in us, that that sanctifying work in us where we're growing in grace, is something that that depends greatly on those ordinary means of grace and and sitting under and devoting ourselves to those or name means of grace, the ministry of his his word, and the ways that is his word ministers to us. So I mean that that's it's vital, there's there's there's nothing without that. Yeah. Yeah. The church isn't an afterthought with God, and the church is the way that He matures us. The church is the way that He will develop us and will ultimately equip us to be useful in whatever spheres we have. So that the idea that you can follow Christ, know Christ, be a faithful Christian and intentionally separate yourself from the Church is just a foreign idea to the scripture. There may be circumstances. You be in prison, you can be sick, you can go to war, whatever kind of community you've already talked about, and you think you are following Christ, there's something bad wrong in your thinking. And I've had this conversation a lot of times as a pastor with people that are pretty much what you were describing. Cannot do that the Bible calls you to do. You just can't do it. You're not doing it because you're not living with God's people in a covenanted relationship in a church. And so for you to think that you're okay with God or that you're growing as a Christian while you're neglecting all of these things. You've just figured out a way to kind of carve out what you think is Christianity or vital Christianity to the neglect of what God has actually said. And it's an indication of just kind of how badly you've been duped and you speaking into your life. What of the I've got to imagine there's a number of influences. Let me just ask the question, what are the influences do you think in our modern world that make an online experience that I'm trying to build online community, build online intimacy, people reaching out to you thousands of miles away, sharing very intimate things. Why do you think that's more attractive to many people? What is in our world that's creating that appetite and causing them to shun the in person intimacy and experience. I think there's been a transition and transformation in our thinking and understanding and worldview. There's a generation of people who have grown up in an environment where everything that they consider to be real happens on a screen, like everything they do and everything they've done, you know, some for all their lives. Right, everything happens on a screen. Everything that you want, everything that you need, you get it on the screen. You don't you don't cook your food. You go to your phone and you know, go to an app and you tell somebody to bring it. Right, We don't go to class or go to school. You do it all, you know online. I mean, so many, so many of these things, right, they're just it's it's life on the screen, and it's becoming more and more pervasive. Not to say that screens are inherently bad things, right, Like I said in the message that there's it's been a great benefit and be able to have access to some of the things that we have access to, but there's a cost to it as well. His answer stands, Yeah, amen. I mean there's a couple of books I'd recommend. One is Neil Postman Amusing Ourselves as Death. It's dated, but it's still very very relevant. And then I've just forgotten the author's name, the Shallows. What's that guy's name, Nick, I can't remember. Yeah, I know what you're talking about, what the internet is doing to our brains. Yeah, that's fantastic book. Yeah, I mean we're just we're being discipled twenty four to seven by technology and even not. The content is one thing, but it's the method of delivery. We've gone from a linear age way of thinking to a photographic image based aid way of thinking. And the commercials, television commercials, I don't even know if people still make television commercials. I don't watch television shows the way that they used to be watched. The commercial just do it, you know, have twenty seven images boom boom boo boom, just knew it. Yeah, there's no message there, but they somebody paid somebody a lot of money to figure out that's a good way to get you to buy their shoes. And so we're just being discipled that way. Yeah, a lot of smart people trying to get our attention and keep our attention and keep us distracted. So we'll bye bye bye bye. Right. One of the things that I think young people especially can observe about all their online heroes, or I shouldn't say all, but many of many online heroes is the fact evangelicalism, and even in some places in conservative reformed evangelicalism, they find their online heroes are not nailed down to a local church. So they're they're on the move all the time. And there are some people even in that in that sphere who do a lot to curate and how they cross online and they they several takes before they post it online. So there's a lot being done, I think within our own circle. I think of pretty pretty big name that fell. He's now passed away, but pretty pretty significant scandal. And he was not nailed down to a local church. He was not under the authority of a local church. If you could talk to somebody like that in their younger days as they're building a ministry, what would you tell them to encourage them for the sake of those who hear them, what to do differently? Why? Yeah, And that's not new Billy Graham was he lived his whole life in North Carolina, but he was a member of First Baptist Dallas. Right, how does that work? Yeah? How does that work? And how does First a long time ago? His name's on their roles? Yeah, yeah, And you know, we're more famous because that famous name is is on our roles. And I I think that's something that that we have to just address from this biblical theological perspective, Right, we have to have that theological argument of what the local church is, what the value of the local church is, and we have to press that upon people and confront that your calling is more to the local church. My calling is larger than that. I mean, I'm more needful to the Lord. Obviously He's given me these gifts. Yeah, yeah, I got to curate these gs I gotta I got a stewardship of these gifts to give an account for. So they're arguing, they're making that argument. Yeah, yeah, there's nothing larger, so you ain't special yea, And I know now, I mean I was like, the word of God applies to you too. That's the thing you're trying to teach the word, you're defining the word. It's and there's a I've had encounter with God locally like that well known uh yeah, you know. It's got a ministry. He's done some things, goes into churches and does certain sorts of training and was convincing how to do it at our church. And it just didn't go so well. You know, I said, well where you remember, Oh I'm not a member anywhere. I said, well, you're not going to do that here. Yeah. So it's it's you're setting yourself up for a disaster. You're not special. You're not special. We all need what God has provided for every Christian in the church, and to think that you are safe by living outside of that. So, I mean, what I would say to your question, to a guy like that or myself is, men, you need to anchor your life with the people of God. Be willing to know and be known. You know, have people in your life that are willing to hold you accountable. You need that and everybody needs that. Nobody's above that, and it's a gift of God. Yeah, So I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable, but here goes, how do you guys do that for your own ministries? Who's who's watching your life and keeping you anchored down? Stay in one church for thirty five years? I mean you know, I mean God's done that. And have godly elders, you know, have elders that don't take any stuff off of you. That's what I'm trying to draw. Yeah, I mean it's really good, you know. Yeah, I mean I quit trying to fool these guys a long time ago. Yeah, it's yeah, absolutely, it's essential. And but you have to have a commitment to that costly intimacy, right, because you know, be a part of a church, right and still not have a commitment to that costly intimacy. And it's to your own detriment. Right. Our souls need to be shepherded. Every Christian needs that. The minute we start to believe that our souls don't need to be shepherded, you know, we we've made ourselves pray to that roaring lion who's seeking whom he made devour, you know. And I live in the land of lions, you know, and they look, they look for stragglers. Yeah, like like one of those antelope out there with a puffed up straying from the herd ain't gonna happen. Yeah, he's lunch. Let me mention one other thing too. I mean, this is something I think every man needs to do. This, every married man. You need to disciple your wife and you need to help your wife to grow and grace. And I haven't done as well at that as I would like to have done. But my wife is one of the best practical theologians I know, and so talk about people that don't take anything off of me, you know, I mean, she knows it, and if you know, you start getting these emails and people say, oh man, we love this, we love this. I'm thinking, oh, it's pretty good my wife. So yeah, but you didn't yesterday. Yeah, and so uh it's just it's good to have a you could preach a sermon, you can't, that's right, you know, so to help me. And you had a bunch of kids onto that too. Oh I know, I know, you know, you used to think it was cute when they would answer all those theological questions and catechides with books, But now they understand the issues big enough to apply them to their father. So uh so. But I mean, but it really is a good thing. That's a gift, that's a blessing. To cultivate that in your marriage where you know, don't don't squelch your wife and help your wife to access the tools, the relationships in the church and opportunities to grow in grace and then help her to know how to call you out, to not let you get away with stuff. Yeah, emboldened people around you to hold you accountable. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's good, Vodie. When you this is kind of connecting with Tom's message. When you made a decision to leave Houston and go to Lusaka. How did you know that the was God's will? I think just through your experience and what you had to wrestle through. Uh, the painful experience ripping part of your heart out as you leave. You don't do that lightly. No, wonder if you could just take us through a little bit of that decision making. I think it's instructive, even if people aren't pastors making decisions as well and trying to figure out God's will for them. Yeah. And we left our two oldest kids here too, so yeah, and now three three grand kids. But I I would say that the called two years after we had we'd started GFBC. I went for the first time, and I really sense the Lord's calling. That's that's an awkward sense in two thousand and eight, right after you started it. Yep, wow, Yeah, I since the lords. I didn't know. I didn't know what that would look like. I didn't know, you know, any of that. But but I had that sense. But there were two boxes that needed to be checked off. One was my wife, right, God gave me my wife. Relationship with my wife, So I don't come home and say, you know, hey, guess what you know, so it took eight years for the Lord to call her and so, and then even then that wasn't a done deal because when both of us had that sense, you know, I'm part of an eldership. So what I didn't do is come to my fellow elders and say, the Lord's called us, we're going. I came to my fellow elders and I said, here's where we are. What say you? And our elders had the authority to say no to that. If they didn't, then we're liars about what we say we believe. And so we put that before our elders and asked them to be our elders. You know none of this. You know, I had a dream, I had a vision. Here it is, We're gone, right, But I believe Hebrews thirteen seventeen right that these men were exercising that authority in my life and shepherding me and my family. So that was the second step. And when I brought it to them, you know, they spent some time with it and then came back to us affirming that call. And so it was only then that that we made the move. It's really helpful a couple of our elders met with a church member who older man retired free to go, that the means to go wherever he wants to go. And he had the humility to come to the elders and say do you think I should do this? Or do you think I should do that? And he's praying through those issues. That's a that's a remarkable testimony. It's not something you hear, especially from somebody who's a type a leader, hard charger. That's not what you hear. That's that's something to take note of. To cultivate that kind of humility. It's because of that that I needed it all the more because I would have the tendency, left to my own devices, to be very impulsive, right, and to just go and not think about all the things that need to be thought about. And so I need those people in my life who say, okay, great, but what about this? Because I'm not thinking about that. I'm going squirrel right, and I'm you know, so yeah, it's it's it's incredibly important. And it's also again it's important if we believe what we say, we believe, you know, if it's one thing to say that we believe, you know, the ecclesiology of the church, you know, ought to be an elder ship, right, But but then do we really believe that? And if we really believe that, how do we how do we function in a way that proves it? You know, I just want to underscore that that fits exactly what you said earlier about it's an ordinary means of grace. So you're not looking for a vision or a dream or some kind of three by five card floating down from heaven. You just saying, Okay, this is what we want to do. This, God's put us on our heart, Brothers, help us that ordinary. It's fascinating to see how many people, I think Christians, evangelicals have been groomed for decades to do They're thinking isolated from the local church, away from the elders. They don't see the elders as as assets to them, but rather as hindrances getting in the way of what they want. And I think that really is we are a culture that has trained us to do exactly what you want. Just do it, Just do it, just do it. And I'm not the only pastor that has this experience, I know. But people will come and what they're looking for is not really counselor they're looking for affirmation. Yeah, yeah, I made this decision. And whenever whenever it comes out that way where God's told me or God's leading me, you know, I just listen and they so what do you think about that? Well, why do you care what I think about? If God told you to do it? You know, who am I to say anything? You've already heard from the Lord. He told you to do something. I'm going to tell you not to do it. But it's it's it is that exact thing you described. It's this individualistic God's given me this. I'm going to do it, and I want you to approve it and not question it, not say anything that might reconsider I refuse to play that game. Tom, you're opening illustration. Uh, that was really helpful. The bricklayer, the wall builder, the cathedral builder, Just for folks who may be on the brink of a decision that they've got to make and they are wondering about what if I don't find significance in my work, you know what I got. I've got legitimate questions about that. Where is the line between maybe sin and righteousness on this issue? For maybe, for example, you know, it might be a misuse of your time and talents to be full time professional Brazilian jiu jitsu, you know, or and definitely a waste of your time to try to try. I got you. But but if if you did have the time or talents to do something else, and this is what God has called you to do, you could make different decisions. You did make different decisions. Same thing for people who aren't in vocational ministry but are in other vocations. Where is the line with that? Maybe godly discontentment and then maybe discontentment discontentment, you know what I'm saying. Yeah. I quoted Calvin from book three of his Institutes where he talks about avoiding flitting because you're settled on your personally and it's whatever God's commanded, you got to do what He's forbidden you can't do. And now we're in the realm of all right, you're free to do or not do, and you want wisdom, you want to get the most bang for your buck, and God invests things in people sometimes we can't. They dragged him into doing that. Calvin did not want to be the pastor in Geneva, and he was threatened with damnation if he didn't do it. I pointed in his you know, God will damn your studies if you don't stay here, so you know, so there they had it in him, they didn't see it, and that's where the body comes in. That's where good counsel from other believers come into. But I think it's all it's it's really good to do a value. You know, I can do this over here and it could be good for the kingdom. But I can do this over here and it can be good for the kingdom. You've got two good choices. You seek counsel, and then you take your choice, and you're confident that when you step out that that God is going to own that and if it flops, okay, well then it'll flop to His glory and maybe you'll get up and do something different in the wake of that. Personally, the way I've operated personally with that is with such a sense of God's providence. I know, right now I'm where I'm supposed to be, not because I'm so smart or holy or anything, but because God's sovereign, all right. So if God didn't want me on this stage right now, I wouldn't be on this stage right now. That's his providence. He's got me in Cape Coral pastoring this church. That means I'm never going to do anything different. I'm in this vocation. I'm a mechanic. I'm never going to be a school teacher. No. Maybe if I have an inclination for that and I learned and figure out a way to do that and can do it, and people say, yeah, it'd be a good thing, you would serve the kingdom well in that, then I think I'm free to pursue it. It's always on the move, you know. I am where I am by God's providential arrangement. If it's lawful, I'm not playing games and being honest and open. Then the burden of proof is the change, and it happens. It happens, but it's that's been a just a helpful safe guid for me through the years. Yeah. Amen, the you mentioned I believe it was you mentioning Luther and Martin Luther developing a or rediscovering or developing or articulating a doctrine of vocation, and especially in Germany at that time where you've got to get a massive change going on, I mean rise of banking and people that are merchants that can then break free from some of the class structures and strictures and rigid class structure. So there's a change in it's freeing people up not to be stuck in some particular rut. So I know it's an oversimplification to say it this way, but when you're given, when you're freed from being say being a slave, being stuck following the plow, so you're a boot maker. And it goes back generations tinkers and tailors and all those other vocations that they were part as part of their family. Now they're able to make decisions. There's upward mobility, sideward mobility. That's a stewardship. There's a stewardship of choice in that. So how do you encourage people to especially think about many young people with choices in front of them, they're not in a certain career and you're thinking tom about the good of society. How would you encourage Christian young people to think about the stewardship of those choices, the kinds of decision. I think, first of all, what I would say is you got to do whatever is going to be best for your soul. You got to do if you're not well grounded biblically, spiritually in a church where you're getting good counsel. I mean, if those things are iffy, then you know, you might be able to make a billion bucks, but it's not going to be good for you. You know, these foundational things. So even like education, all of our kids went to college. All of them went to college. I don't think they all graduated, But our view of college was kind of like, you know, the Israelites on the way out of Egypt. You know, just just take it for all you can and get what you want is good, and that's fine, but don't worry about a degree or anything. Like, if you get a degree, that's fine. But that was just kind of our attitude. But they all went to college locally to stay in this church. And I've had people say, you know, we're looking at colleges across the land and that there's nothing wrong with that. But my first piece of counsel to them when they ask is find a school that's got a good church nearby. I wouldn't send a kid to usual circumstances, maybe exceptions, but under normal circumstances, just wouldn't send an eighteen year old off to a college where there's no church. So fundamentally, you got to do what's best for your soul. And if this decision is going to take you away from the path that's going to get you more anchored in the Word of God spiritually, I would discourage it until you get those things. So where do you get the most bang for your buck? You only got a few years to live. How can you get the most out of it for what really matters? And that might include finances, you know, it might include opportunities in different places of the world, but only in a secondary way to what will bring most glory to God. That's the battle, that's the how do you figure that out that you can most glorify God? And those are would mobility. I'm thinking about those two Moravians that offer to sell themselves into slavery so they could get into a country as missionaries. It's called downward mobility for the sake of the kingdom. You know, I'll be a slave I can get the Gospel over there. It's that kind of mentality. I do think it goes hand in hand with this idea of calling. I am called by my Savior and commission to be a part of His work in this world and that's settled. So now it's just the details of where do I do that the best, and I can get counsel for that and maybe this for one season of my life, and it's going to be that for the other season. And you know, we all get older and we can't do as much as we used to do when you're younger. Hopefully we can think about things a little better when we were younger, and so the stewardship. But man, it's it's bang for the buck, understand what the bank? How different is are these questions in Lusaka than they are in Cape Coral. They're they're different in the sense that opportunities are not the same. You know, this is the land of opportunity, right. Uh, they're they're they're different in that regard. To think, unemployment rate in Zambia is somewhere in the sixties percentage wise, So they're they're they're they're different in in in that sense. So how are you speaking to young people who come to you with the same kind of these same kind of questions? How are you helping them to think through? Yeah, the same the same way. The principles are the same, right, regardless of where you are just when there are fewer opportunities makes it easier to applying for the job. And it's and it's it's it's a stewardship, you know. And for us, you know, one of the things that we're really trying to help people, our students at ACU, for example, wrap their heads around, is is entrepreneurship and creating opportunities, you know. And more Christians are getting shoved out of the workplace because of their Christianity. I think more Christians are thinking more about entrepreneurship as well. Here. Yeah, absolutely we have heres. It's you've got this widespread, deeply held misunderstanding of the nature of the Christian life, as you did talked about, and so where that's not present, you know, you just you get these young people that have grown up with misunders standings. They're not really good teaching about the nature of the Christian life anchored in a community of faith and uh, and they just mean, I got this, I want to do this, I want to do this. I can do that. And you can just listen in the way they taught the world and they have the church, it's just their values, their approaches to making decisions, and so those are fundamental issues that need to be remediated the best you can. And you know it doesn't start when they're eighteen. So let's go to the other end of the age spectrum and talk about people who you know, post post vocation, post career, and now they've they've got some free time, could be limited, means, could be more, means what you know a lot of. Every every time a new iPhone comes out of reinforces the idea in our culture that what's old is useless, shelved, it's invested in the church and invested in the kingdom and invested in younger lives. I think by pointing out just that right that that season in your life is an opportunity to invest. And you know, the sad reality is people usually don't last very long when they stop investing. You know, you just the the idea, the idea of retiring, and first of us grossly unbiblical. But secondly, it's not helping people to realize that and then to help them understand how great the needs are. It's it's amazing, you know people, and then people want to retire early, right just when you're not dumb anymore, just when you know something and are good at something and could probably be teaching people and be more effective and fruitful. You you know, take your toys and go home, and that's that's bad storeship, you know. So we have to help people understand that and understand how valuable that can be in the body and in the community at large as well. How do you, I'm sorry to interrupt you, how do you help them, especially those who are sixteen above that they have of these young people, you know, if they have a question, they don't ask somebody with gray hair. They go to Google, they ask their question, they get their answer, and they move on. Enough of that, younger people become wise in their own eyes. They kind of have a lot of knowledge. Not a lot of wisdom, but a lot of knowledge. And it's difficult, I think for older people to overcome that hurdle, that barrier that they feel. Do you guys send that same thing as you're talking to older people, and I was wondering how you overcome it. I am one of those older people, so I'm kind of feeling a little nervous here where you're going with this question, but just wondering how this is. You know, Florida is a retirement community. Yeah, well, one of the people come down here to live the dream of John Piper, you know, picking up seashells. So I got a picture from one of those guys today on my phone that sent to me on the beach picking up shows you a seashells right. Well. One of the blessings in this church is we have over the years, we just had older people, retired people who could do a lot of things, and they just they invest man half a dozen probably here tonight that are mentoring, discipling, teaching, serving, you know, the driving to places they need to get that drive themselves, and filling in. Talk to one of our men tonight, he's volunteering and so how did you get to these do this as well? I saw that if there was a need, I can do this. And you know, he could be doing a lot of other things with his time, but this is something that he wants to do. Canvest in that type of attitude. When our kids were young, when we came to this church, it was exclusively with maybe I don't know, I think I was the youth group. My wife and I were the youth group when we came to this church, and so everybody else was retirement age and above. But amongst those, you know, as things sifted out over a few years, the ones that were left, they were godly people and it was just great to point from my kids to point to them and say, look look at brother so and so, look at sister so and so, be like her, be like him. And that's a I don't know. I suppose there might be some intimidation factors with our people. I don't I'm not much aware of it the way you frame think about it, because there may be some of that, but at least within the context of the church, I would think that would be the norm. I think that would probably be less than average, but it might be there them just might be unaware of it. All right, Do you have anything on that or did I frame the question wrong? All right? All right. I think that some of that older generation the kind of things that they can invest in younger lives. It is exactly as you said that they have a new chapter. You talked about risk of intimacy, and you know, you spoke as someone who's risks. I was wondering what kind of risks have you personally gone through or you've seen people go through that you know, things can come back to bite you, And why is that worth it? For a younger generation that is groomed to do everything online to keep people at a distance, why is that risk worse? It worth it? Because need it, We need each other, We need the body. It's no no one person has everything, right, We're one body, many members, and the body of Christ to us a rich blessing to our souls. Right. And we may not even realize it, but our souls crave it because that's what that's what we're made for, you know. And so it is it is worth it. It's it's hard, you know, it's painful. I had a couple of people come up, a couple of pastors come up, just kind of sharing, not even details, but just I get you, and it is that's you know that that's but that's that's who we are, right, That's who we are. Yeah. It's like when you get married. You know, one of the one of the most difficult things about marriage, disillusionment that happens when you have this idea that you know, our love is the greatest love in the history of all loves. And because our love is so great that it may be hard for other people. But that's just because they don't have a love that is a love like our love, which is the greatest love in the history of all loves. And then all of a sudden they run into a bussaw and it's difficult, and then they want to go jump off a building because and into this. Then you know what, and we we we end up disillusion like that because because we don't understand that there is that risk to ercy and that we are sinners, and then we start telling ourselves lies like you know, if you really loved me, then you wouldn't sin against me like this. Well, it's because I love you that we are living in such proximity. And two smarts live in proximity to one another, they sin more against each other than they do against the people who are way over there. Right, So it's because I love you that I sin against you so much, right, And so I I think it's hugely problematic when we when we we don't understand this, and when we don't prepare ourselves for this, and when we don't from a bring proper theological understanding to that so that we let love cover a multitude of sins, right, so that we learn how to reconcile. You know, that. It's just those are beautiful things that we desperately need. Yeah, how are you gonna How you gonna learn how to forgive? Don't live close enough to people to offend you. You know, I see it as part of my job as teaching people how to forgive. I do it pretty well too. Yeah. No, but it's true. I mean, you know, you don't get hurt if you don't live that way and you don't learn how to give it. You've been forgiven and that just goes with it and not over too. Man. That's the other thing. You see things happen and you see people walk away, and you think, oh gosh, I can't believe that the story's not over. God's doing a thousand things. And sometimes I like to think of my life like, you know, there's this tapestry that God is weaving together. It's beautiful, it's not finished yet, it's going to be awesome. And He's put me down here in this little corner, and I get the opportunity to try to fix that corner just right. And if you look at that corner, it's not much told deal and so things right now might be all messed up, but it's not over. So it's lived that. But there's another side of it too, And and we've met on that risk. If you've met people who've decided, no, I'm going to go live my life in isolation, right, if you've ever had the opportunity to meet somebody who's done that for decades or whatever, what you realize is that in avoiding this risk and pain over here, they've embraced a pain that's even deeper. Because we weren't made to live. They become two dimensional people, very hollow inside and useless for good work out there too. Yeah, So that risk of that risk of either offending somebody else or being offended being heard, and you know, all those things that they're trying to avoid are the very things that God's trying to draw out of our hearts to shape us more like Christ's conformist to him. How do you see then, Let's just maybe one final question I've got. How do you see that then? Being attractive? It's an anti Christian world, it's becoming anti more so, how do you see that though, being the sweet smell of Christ out there in the world, even in a non Christian world and anti Christian world, all the formation, all the hurt the shaping, the difficulty, the risk, the pain, all the offending, confessing sin, asking forgiveness, being granted forgiveness, all that stuff going on in the local church across generations. How is that then made attractive to people out there in the workplace government? How are Christians spreading the savor of Christ that way? I think in one sense, it's inevitable. If you're getting it and you're enjoying it, it's gonna just exude out of you. And that's happened. I mean, we all have those stories, but I hear them pretty regularly from folks that are in workplace, in relationships with extended family, and uh, there'll be a death or a sickness or some tragedy in the inevitably there's something like this, I don't you know, I hit it, or in your church really rallied around you, and those things are just it's not because it's the way you live and we can we can live in that environment in some ways where we lose sight of the fact that this is really different than what is out there, because we are we're living together in the church. But we ought to to kind of put the Gospel on display. It's it's a horrible That's why church splits and disharm are so wicked, because we're sending a message. We're preaching a message that you can be reconciled to God. We're preaching a message of love, and we can't even get along with one another. And it's just we put a lie to the message we profess. But whenever it's working, it's like, yeah, you call somebody or text somebody in there at your house and they will drop everything to help you. And there's that's the grace of God at work. That's the way normal Christianity is. And whenever you put that together and you cultivate it and you try to keep the weeds out when they pop up, and you repent and you forgive and you get up and keep going, there is something very compelling about that. And when we allow the Lord to use that, he does. You know, when when we when we don't hide our light under a bushel and live that and make it known and and don't try to pretend like we're perfect or it is a fragrant aroma, you know, because people are it's a it's a lost hurting and dying that's attractive if we'll let it you know, good work, good word. Thank you very much. Maybe you can close us and breath. Yeah, let's do that. Why don't we stand up, We'll pray. M m hm. Father. We've talked about wonderful things tonight, and we've been reminded of your grace and mercies to us over the course of lifetimes, and we can't help but offer up praise and thanksgiving to you for your faithfulness. We we know that we have fallen. We know that we would fall a thousand times a day if it weren't for your spirit who upholds us, and the grace that operates through your word and spirit and leading us back to Christ, grounding us in Him and help our deepest longings and desires and needs met in Him. Wait, what has been said biblically and where we need to repent? Grant us that grace. Lord, Please make us quick repenters. Don't let us live trying to figure out ways to justify our sin. Help us to see Christ and be so convinced that the grace that is in Him is real and sufficient that we will quickly turn from sin, confess it, look to him, live without condemnation. Where we've been sinned against help us to forgive and where we've sinned against others. Lord, help us to go and make things right and build churches, Build churches where this power of the Gospels put on display. And help each one of us in this room to be committed to pursuing others and sisters in local churches. To that end, dismiss us with your blessing tonight, go with us watch overs. We pray for you to bless the conference tomorrow. Some will still be traveling in Lord, watch over them, keep them safe and a sweet time together around the word before we pray in Jesus name. Amen, Amen, Thank you man. Just a reminder for you all. If you're coming to the conference tomorrow. Registration starts at ten am. The bookstore opens at ten am. The conference begins at one pm, so we'll see you there. We know issue we left. Even when we were down. I made my mistakes that I paid quite hard. No, I don't know what to do, because all I think about is you think about it. True. All I think about it A lay away trying to brave the weight on my chestice is my faith. Nobody knows the sadness a hold, Nobody sees what's about you one fulking at me because I still believe once I was with you, no money, no issue, we left even when we were down. A matelestakes that I pay for it hoard. No, I don't know what to do, so I think about it is you