PLEASE READ Kathryn Kuhlman Talk Pastors Conference Part 2 of 2

Catherine Kuhlman often stated, I believe in miracles. In this informative discussion at a Melodyland conference, Ms. Kuhlman shared the deepest insights of her heart on the ministry of healing. This is part two of that series. The next question here was, is it God's will to heal all of the sick? You know, we'll get there. The real answer from the master one of these days. The real answer. If I could answer all of these questions, I would be God. There's only one who's perfect wisdom. There's only one who is perfect knowledge. To the answer to that question, I can only give you my personal opinion. That's all. You see... When you're young and you're inexperienced, you are very quick to answer questions. You think you have all the answers. But when you get more mature and you have deeper experiences and you become better acquainted with the Holy Spirit, you see things very differently. Years ago, I wrote a little book. Let me see. The name of the book was... Oh. It's a little red book. That's all that I know. It was about Lydia, and she touched the hem of a garment. It's been so many years ago. And in that book, I made a very definite statement. It was so definite. It was so... I said that definitely. It was the perfect will of God that all be healed. That's when I was young and inexperienced. Today, those who read that little tiny booklet, It's just only a few pages. It's red. I want you to know that I'm not so sure. In this, and this is very personal. This, again, is personal. I can only tell you from personal experiences how one lives. There is someone that I know. A young man, 19 years of age, who just a couple of weeks ago had a very serious accident. Very serious. In fact, the accident was so serious that had it not been for the mercy of God, there might have been a leg amputation. 19 years of age. But what nobody knew was the fact that just three months ago, that same young man came to me and questioned the reality of God. It's another thing that has taken place in college. It's another thing, the influence of a psychology teacher. I'm telling you what I know. I'm telling you from personal experience. Here's a young man who was brought up, a Christian mother who's had all the influence of spiritual things, a young man marvelously born again. The influence of the spirit has stood up and spoken before Christian young people groups and yet came to me not more than three months ago and said to me, how do I know? How do I know? How can I be? I said, as I look at... Ain't never so shocked in my life. Exactly two weeks ago, that young man had an accident, and they thought for a while that leg would have to be amputated. The good -looking, handsome young fella, 19 years of age, for two weeks. He's been there on the flat of his back for two weeks. And even now, there's a crisis. And just a few days ago, somebody said, why does God allow things to happen to his children? Why? Why? I know why God allowed that to happen to that young man. It's the only way he could get him to think. It's the only way. Child of mine, I love you enough. And I believe in the love of God. I believe whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth. I would believe me if I... could this very hour. If my mama were standing right here, unashamedly, I would kneel and kiss my mother's feet and say to her mama, I'm glad you disciplined me. I'm glad you were strict with me. I'm glad you didn't let me do what the other kids did. And for that day, when that Rother girl came to our home and begged and begged and begged for you to let me stay all night at her house when we were just 13 -year -old kids. And I bawled and I said, Mama, but all the other kids are doing it. All of the other kids are doing it. Mama, please. The other kids are doing it. And Mama just stood there and shook her. We said, no. I don't care what the other children are doing. You're not going to stay all night. When night comes, your bed is here. You're going to be home at the age of 15. That girl was rushed to the hospital. They removed her illegitimate child, and the child, the unborn child, was so eaten with disease, they had to remove it piece by piece. Peace. And she died on the operating table. I'm glad for a mother who loved me enough to be strict with me. I thank my mother that she loved me enough not to let me do whatever I wanted to do. Whom the Lord loveth, he chasteth. And, beloved, a God in perfect wisdom and perfect knowledge, it's the same thing as somebody said, if I had a million dollars, what I'd do with it. If you had a million dollars, you'd backslide. Because you aren't being faithful with the $10 you have now. He couldn't trust you with anymore. I cannot say this is my own personal answer. I cannot say it is God's perfect will because God knows how you would use your healing and what you would do if. You were healed. I leave it to God's perfect wisdom and God's perfect knowledge. How many understand? Put it back. Someone wants to know how old you are, Ms. Kuhlman. I'm old enough to vote. Good enough. That's good enough. And as a woman, it's a wolf. A man wouldn't dare. I'll stay. When do you think Jesus is coming back in person? The approximate year. I think one would be very foolish. Remember something. Say, how many are enjoying this? Put up a hand. Oh, that's good. I sure am. Now remember something. Stay with the scripture. And I want to say to you folks, let me just give you this word of advice. When anybody starts making a definite prediction as to a given date, a given time, that one is speaking in error because the Bible says the times and the seasons will know. We don't know the times and the seasons, and we know, we know if you've got an ounce of spirituality. If you know the scripture at all, you know that when the leaves begin to turn, you know that, of course, out here in California, I'm talking about the folks in the east. When the leaves begin to turn, somebody says, well. We're coming into fall now, you know. Sure. And at the close of winter, when you begin to see the trees begin to bud, you say, well, we're not going to have to travel over ice much longer. We're not going to have snow much longer. Why? Because it's spring, the times and the seasons, and we know. We know without fear of contradiction that we're at the very threshold of the rapture of the church. We know that. We know that. It can take place. We can have the break catching up. We can have the rapture of the church before I will have finished speaking. And no Bible student can say that he had the rapture. Too soon. So far as I know, not one thing has to be fulfilled because, beloved, the tribulation begins after the great catching up, as it was in the days of Noah. Remember, the warning was given, and the door of the ark was shut. Before the rains came, not a drop of water got in the ark. Not a drop of the floodwaters got into the ark. God shut the door. God closed that door. The great rapture of the church is a way of escape. It isn't. a time for the perfecting of the saints. Know that. There are those who feel that the saints have to go through the great tribulation. We're not having the tribulation for the perfecting of the saints. If you aren't ready right now, if you aren't ready right now, going through the tribulation will not make you any more ready. It is not for the perfecting of the saints. or this church. It's the time when God keeps his earthly covenants with the Jews, with Israel. And we have the great catching up before judgment strikes. And I don't want to be here one second after the rapture of the church because this great constraining power, the Holy Spirit, will be gone. But the Bible says, the day and the hour knoweth no man. The day and the hour, not even the angels in heaven. If God hasn't told the angels in glory, what month, what day, what hour, he's not going to tell you and he's not going to tell me. How many believe I'm right? That is one thing that he has reserved unto himself. That is one thing that he's reserved. So that when anybody comes and says, the Lord is going to come, we're going to have the rapture of the church, such and such a day, such and such a month, such and such an hour, you say, brother, That is not scripture. The times, the seasons, we know. But the day and the hour knoweth no man. I'm talking about the rapture. When it comes to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, and it comes back to earth in bodily form, that will take place exactly seven years. after the rapture of the church, the great catching up. How many say that? Put up a hand. Now, be careful. Let the enemy get you off on a limb and somebody begins predicting a month, a day, or an hour. If somebody gets a message and you think it's from God, And in that message, and you think it's of the Spirit, and in that message, there's a definite day and a definite hour you've heard from the wrong spirit. Amen. Thank you, Catherine Cuban. We're in the Charismatic Clinic and Christian Center in Anaheim. And someone said that in the shrine service that you have each month in Los Angeles, They wanted to know, do you actually see the man or the woman in the spirit when you say that someone up in a certain section is receiving his healing? Or do you experience some reaction in your own physical body that you know about it? How does this work? All right, I'll answer this as the best that I can. I tried to talk about that this morning. Do you understand there's some things that are of the spirit? For instance, a few minutes ago, when these men were telling of their experiences, those who went on the power for the very first time, could you really, do you have it in your vocabulary to really express what happened when you were filled with the Spirit? Could you really? You can't. And when it comes to that which I experience, Sometimes for 15 minutes at a time, after a service was over, somebody will say, well, you remember that woman that did so -and -so and so -and -so? I don't know one thing about it. Or someone will testify and say, Ms. Kuhlman said that there is so -and -so over here to her right. And she said that person and described me and all about it. I have no recollection of it whatsoever. None. I can go through 15, 20 minutes, 30 minutes of a service and not be aware of a single personality. Take for instance the Shrine Auditorium. 7 ,000 people there. I can go over that length of time and not be conscious of a single personality, not one. I am only conscious of the Holy Spirit. I am following Him. I don't know if you understand what I mean or not. You become, the best I can say, a violin. That violin means nothing. Absolutely. Unless there is the master hand that takes that bow. And when that master violinist takes that bow and those strings key so perfectly those strings are so tight they're sensitive to the master who holds that oh i'm nothing but the old violin case and i become so sensitive I follow him. I watch him. That's the reason sometimes all I can say is, it's waves of glory in this place. It's waves of glory in this place. There is something that almost lifts me out of my body. You say to me, Catherine Kuhlman, how can you work the way you do? You still live? 15, 16 years ago, Dr. Miller visited me and he said, I can't let you die. I can't let you die. I've watched you work as surgeon in Pittsburgh for years on the stack of Shadyside Hospital. He said I know enough about the physical body that no physical body can take the beating that your body takes. I know the physical body. I can't stand by and see a body beaten like yours and take what your body is taking. You've got the letter. Dr. Miller's dead and I'm still going. I'll tell you what it is. Something happens to me. There is a refreshee in my own body. It's the resurrection power that goes through my own body. You men who get so whipped after 30 minutes. that you have to take the rest of the week off to rest. You make me sick. You haven't learned the secret. You haven't learned the secret. If you're a pastor, after 30 minutes, If all that he preaches is from half past 11 to 12 o 'clock, 30 minutes, and he's memorized his sermon at that, and after those 30 minutes, he has to take six days off to rest from the 30 minutes, there's something wrong someplace. For when you preach in the Spirit, There is a refreshing for your own body that comes from the spirit. And it's just like that. No. There is no sensation in my own body. If you want to know whether there's some sensation in my hand. No. No. Is there some power flowing through my... No. No. All I can tell you is that sometimes I get so filled with the Spirit I can hardly stand on my feet, you know. And I think, oh dear, Jesus is going to look just awful if I'm flat here on the flat of my back like a lizard flattened out in the sun before all these people. What am I going to do, you know? It's just kind of like this. Somebody, you know, and there are times when my own body Every part of me just vibrates with the power of God. But it isn't that there's any healing virtue that flows through my hands. It's the power of the Holy Spirit who does it. And he is the one who gives the spiritual revelation. Not me. How many stand? Put up a hand. Stand up just for a moment. Stretch, huh? Wonderful. You're listening to Charismatic Clinic and I'm Christian Sinner. And tonight, Reverend David Duplessis will be here with us. Final night of the clinic. I love your plan to be with us. Radio station KHOF 99 .5 Los Angeles. You may be seated, folks. Oh, dear goodness, the light. All right, sit down, because I'm only going to go on about seven minutes longer, and that's all. Seven minutes. Yeah, that's all. Somebody said, oh, sit down. That's all right. Oh, God love you. How many really are enjoying this? When I say three, say amen. No, I haven't said three yet. When I say three, say amen. And there was a preacher that started with that amen. All right. One, two, three. Well, if you aren't, get up and go out because there's some people on the outside who'd love to come in, you know. He's coming here learning something. Put up a hand. All right. Say hi to all those over in the annex, Ms. Kuhlman, will you? Just wave at them. They're on the closed door. Hi. Thank you. Come on over if you can get in. They can't. Ms. Kuhlman, they say here they recognize God's power in the services here at Christian Center. and also at the shrine. Is not this same manifestation of the Spirit needed in our denominational churches today? And you say it is, but how can we get it into these churches, and how can this happen? Now remember, of this ministry, of praying for the sick, there's a plan in God's Word for the church. Call for the elders of the church. Anointing them with oil. And the prayer of faith shall save the sick. I wouldn't have a man on my board. I wouldn't have a deacon. I wouldn't have an elder. Now we get into some deep things. I could talk like this because I don't have a church. It was never in the plan of God. Never. I'd be completely out of the will of the Lord if I were to build a church. That's not my calling. That is not my ministry. Very definitely it is not. Understand that. If I would go off... and build a church. Reverend Mr. Wilkerson is a pastor. He's a pastor. Now, back home in Pittsburgh, there are literally hundreds of people who call me a pastor. But I don't have a church. You understand? I have never, and I'll tell you why. I, Carnegie Ritramnar's side, is a city -owned building. Big Carnegie Music Hall, we rent that. The Stambaugh Auditorium, we rent that. Wherever I go, I take civic auditoriums because that is my ministry. And in ready -lease auditoriums, then I get everybody. I get people who do not feel free to attend a church. People who haven't been in church in years and years will come to a public auditorium. And then I go fishing. Do you understand that? Yeah. And so, even though some may call me a pastor, instead of building a church here in the United States, this ministry has built... 21 mission stations on foreign fields. I build all my churches on foreign fields. How many think that's a good idea? And it's just like that. But would it be something if everybody built their churches on foreign fields? That's the reason we thank God for Pastor Wilkerson. And we thank our God for the pastors here. That is a part of God's great plan. But I was never called to be a pastor. Never. Never. God has certain work for certain individuals. Certain colleagues. I've been asked over and over again, why, Ms. Coleman, why do you think that Billy Graham doesn't pray for the sick? Is it a lack of spirituality? A thousand times no. Don't you ever question his spirituality because he doesn't pray for the sick. That is his ministry. Don't you ever. There are those who'd be quick to say if he were more spiritual. Don't you dare. I cannot feel his shoes and neither can he feel my shoes. His ministry is a ministry of salvation. How many understand that? Put up a hand. His calling is one thing. My calling is another. God has given me this ministry. Whatever it is, I wonder myself, what is it? Whatever it is, Rel, but for every pastor in the country to try to either imitate Billy Graham or to imitate me, you may be out of the will of God in doing so. How many understand that? Put up a hand. And it's like that. you dare not get anyone on your board unless that one is in perfect harmony and unity with you. If I had a church, if I was a pastor, I would not have a man serving on the board who was not in one accord with me. I'd get rid of that man so fast you wouldn't see him. I don't care what influence he has. That is one of the secrets if I could tell you, if I could only tell you. How can I say there is a secret in oneness in the spirit? There has got to be a oneness in the spirit. There has got to be. It's got to be. It's got to be. It's just got to be. It's just got to be. One man can throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing. One man can read the Holy Spirit. Rap as long as you have men on your board. As long as you have men working with you. For in oneness of the Spirit with you, there's no limit to what God will do for you. But the very second you get somebody in who'll throw a monkey wrench in the thing, because you see, the Holy Spirit is easily grieved. I don't think any of you know how sensitive the Holy Spirit is. Well, in the Bible, he's likened unto a dove. The gentlest of all birds. I wish I could tell you. That's the reason you may feel that I'm very strict in the service. Because I don't allow certain things. It isn't me. Whispering. When people are talking. Two people are talking. It can greet the Holy Spirit just like that. I can tell you. I can tell you like that. When I walk on the platform and the power of God begins falling, if there's anybody sitting behind me who is not with me in the Spirit, I can tell you. I can tell you. I can tell you. Many a time I could stop. and point to someone sitting on the preacher's row and point my finger right at them and rebuke that critical spirit. In the upper room, they were all with one accord. The Holy Spirit did not descend upon them. until they were all with one accord. Oh, the early church was glorious. They had all things in common. Oh, it was marvelous. It was glorious. As long as they all had that wonderful love of Jesus and there was perfect unity there, it was glorious. But, beloved, just as soon... As one of them started to pull. And another. And another. That's when any church will begin losing out spiritually. When they are no longer in one accord. How many of you preachers understand? Put up a hand. I don't care how much your geekity gets. I don't care how much that elder gives. He's not with you and there's not the oneness in the spirit. Call them aside and say, Brother, there must be perfect harmony, even as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Remember, separate persons, separate personalities, but the Holy Spirit never works apart from the Father. He never works apart from Jesus. Jesus never worked apart from the Holy Spirit nor the Father. Three persons, but the three in one. One in unity and harmony. Want me to quit on that? Ms. Cooman, we're getting too much out of it. How many of you would like for it to go on ten more minutes, huh? It'll be four o 'clock then. That's when we're supposed to go off. Okay. Could you allow four minutes? How many are getting tired of it? Stand up. Nobody stands. All right. Just ten more minutes. All right. Please explain why women are to preach the gospel and are not to keep silent in the church. Why they're not to keep silent in the church. Why women... preach the gospel and i don't know they're trying to bring up the verse well i still think if he could have found a man to do the job that i'm doing he never would have called me i think the answer that came one day in the shrine was one of pastor came up and said you just declare you're a handmaiden but he says he wished he could do as much as a handmaiden Here's another question about a person wanting to know, why is it that some people in the services receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, some of them do not when you're praying for them? Why some receive the gift. Now, of course, you see, you're talking about the baptism of the Holy Spirit, right, Ralph? Right. Of course, now this. Why did they have to tarry in the upper room? I can just imagine in that upper room. Do you see they tarried? And I can imagine John praying like a house of fire when he's got... Time to rest a bit. He opened his eyes and looked around. He saw Peter praying. He thought, you old rascal, you'll never be filled with the Holy Spirit. I know so many bad things about you. Oh. I do not believe that one is filled with the Spirit. until they are in a position to be filled with the Spirit. Do you understand what I'm talking about? This thing of being filled with the Holy Spirit is something very precious. And you don't put something very precious In an old dirty container. You don't do it. If you've got something very precious. There's got to be a cleansing. There has got to be a cleansing. Before that. Wine, take that miracle at the wedding at Cana. We talk about the wine, Jesus turning the water into wine. But had you ever thought, and so much emphasis is placed on the wine. But before there was ever the wine, that's the symbol of the Holy Spirit. And Jesus could have just spoken the word. And those empty bottles, those empty containers, those empty pots could have immediately been filled with the wine. He could have spoken just one word. And he had the power in that split second to have filled every... empty pot to have filled every empty bottle to have filled every empty vessel with wine. But he didn't. There was water first. There was water first. And it takes the blood of Jesus Christ, God's Son, to cleanse us. the water of everlasting life, the water that I shall give. And when there is that glorious cleansing by the blood of the Son of the living God, and when you're in that position where you can look up and say, none of self. Let self be crucified, but all of thee. And there's that complete surrender. And you give yourself completely unto him, for he feels that which you yield unto him. He'll never feel an unclean vest, never with the Holy Spirit. But when you get to that place, you've been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ. And you become yielded unto him. And that hunger, blessed is he who hungers and thirsts after righteousness. There must be that hunger. But beloved, when that hunger comes, keep your eyes on Jesus. is the one to be filled, you praise Jesus. And in that moment, you will receive that for which every atom of your being longs for. Here's the final question. A person has had a real experience with God in the charismatic clinic. But is still having some problem with the cigarette habit. He wants to know, is this an addiction, or is it demonically caused, or what can he do about it? That's a good question. All right, I'll be very frank. This is my last question. I've enjoyed today. I've enjoyed this. I have never in my life ever preached a sermon. against cigarettes. I've never preached a sermon against dress. I've never preached a sermon against liquor. I have never preached a sermon against these things. I'll tell you why. And yet, beloved, watch something. Don't you dare... Use that which I have said as the license for doing any of these. I'm not talking about that. I believe that we need to preach a positive gospel. It's positive. It's positive. It's a positive gospel. It is not my business to preach a negative gospel. To preach against it. It is my business to lift up Jesus Christ. I lift up Jesus. I lift up Jesus. Pastor, if all you've got to preach about when you get up in the pulpit is about the miniskirts and the long hair and the way people look, I still contend that... When you are born again, you'll get a new plumage. I believe that. You'll never hear Catherine Pullman ever preach against these things. Never. As long as I'm faithful in lifting up Jesus, I lift up Jesus, I lift up Jesus in all of his beauty. And I, if I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me. And when you get that wonderful experience and your life is transformed by the power of God, there's something about it. And you've listened to the radio and you've heard the testimony over and over and over again of many a man who has said, You know something wonderful? I went out of that service, that miracle service, I lit up my cigarette and it didn't taste good. It was just awful. And then instead I tried a different brand. You know, the filter kind. And that didn't work. And then I tried another. did you hear the man and i said to him well i didn't say anything about cigarettes no you didn't say anything about cigarettes you didn't say a thing about cigarettes i didn't say it but when that man was born again and when the spirit of the living god got hold of him These old feathers just naturally dropped off. He became a new creature in Christ Jesus and the things you once loved, you now hate. All right, I'm going to answer a question. I do not know who answered that question. I do not know who asked it. I do know that one day a pastor stood in the center aisle of Carnegie Auditorium. And his wife brought him. He'd been living in adultery. And they stood there. She was crying. She said, my husband. And the only reason he was there was because he'd been caught. I said, sir, to tell the truth, it would do me no good to pray for you because you are enjoying your sin and because you are enjoying it, you're going to continue, you're going to walk out of here and continue doing it just the same. It would be insulting God for me to stand here and make a mockery of this. I said, you're enjoying your sin, aren't you? He said, I sure am. I said, I can pray till I'm blue in the face. Your wife can cry until there's no longer tears left in her eyes. But you have to make the decision. You have got to do it. When you are willing to surrender that sin, God will give you deliverance. God will give you deliverance, but he's not going to knock you in the head and say, you know, if you're waiting for God to take it away from you and force you to give it up. But I'll promise any man, I don't care who you are. I'll promise any person that if with all of your heart, not mine, but with all of your heart, you look out and you really want deliverance. You really want it. I love it. challenge me on that because God's Word backs it up. If we confess our sins, He's able and just to forgive us our sins. He'll set you free. And whom the Son sets free is free indeed. And when you're willing to give it up, beloved, all you have to do is to furnish the willingness and He will give the deliverance. Amen and amen and amen.